Connection-Based Parenting with Jenny Sandler

In this candid episode we talk with Jenny Sandler, a Parent and Support Counselor and Coach, about parenting, communication, development in children, and how we grow and change as parents over the years.

We also talk about:

• Exploring the relationship with anger and how it manifests in parenthood

• Normalizing and welcoming anger as a feeling

• The importance of repair in relationships and using anger as teaching moments

• The demonization of anger and the ambiguity surrounding its expression

• The value of community in parenting and the role of extended family and friends

• Embracing different developmental stages of children and appreciating the joys and challenges of each age

• The significance of understanding and connecting with children on a personal level

• The evolving knowledge and resources available for parents compared to previous generations

• The loneliness and confusion that can come with being a new parent

• The ongoing learning and growth process in parenting and relationships

Transcript:

Hi, and welcome to the council of father's podcast. I'm Noah, this is Dave, and we're here to explore the wild journey. We call fatherhood. We're here today with a very, very special guest, our dear friend, Jenny. Hi, welcome to the show.  Thank you so much for coming. I'm so excited to. Dive in and learn and explore with you, uh, just a brief introduction for our listeners.

Um, Jenny Sandler is a Boulder based parent support professional, a. k. a. Parenting Coach. And she is amazing, and she has helped me and my family. So much, so many times, um, she has a master's in social work and has done training with the Denver Family Institute and she'd been a therapist for years and is a licensed social worker and she's so honored to be working with parents and we're so honored to have her here with us.

She has two kiddos, nine and 11, 12, nine and 12.  Okay.  Um,  yeah, Jenny,  thanks.  Yeah, thanks for being here.

Yeah. Well, part of the reason we wanted to have you here is cause.  We know your skill set very well. Both Noah and I have benefited from your, your skill set.  Part of the reason is that we sometimes ask for feedback about the show and, and people are like, have more moms on and uh, who, who better, you know, to have than you.

Um, and the other reason is that you've just started a new, um, vent adventure, a new, um, Yeah, a new,

a new thing, a new  journey,  and we're really excited to have you share that with our listeners. Like, you're, you're offering something that we really want folks to hear about.  It's awesome. And, um,  yeah, I wonder if you could tell us a little bit about that. Like, what are you up to now? What are you offering?

Thank you. Um, I,  Well, it's interesting because there's a part of it that feels new and a part of it that feels so very old and more like a stepping into the next chapter of it. Um, but I am here to support parents in their parenting journey. Uh, and I came to it from my own humble space of,  uh, it was very hard for me, my initiation into parenthood.

And I I really sought and looked for mentors in ways where this would feel really good for me and would be a place of healing and support for me and also for my children. Um, and so that is what I'm passionate about now. And so  what I, what I do for our clients is offer that on a one, you know,  one on one situation or with the couple.

Um, and then also in a group format because we're not meant to be doing this alone. And so the more we can do this in community,  um, I think the better for everyone.  Cool. Beautiful. And when you say, you say do this, right, you're talking about parenting  and  I'm wondering if you can share just like a little bit about like what, what that means for you to you.

The journey of parenthood

comes to my mind is like almost an initiation over and over again.  These  opportunities for us to  understand ourselves within the context of these incredible  beings that are our children. Um,  is  that we need to look at and explore for ourselves so that we can come to the relationship. And be in support and role model to these children  with, ideally, as much clarity as possible.

Um, but it really does feel like an initiation over and over and over again. And I mean, like,  on a daily or multiple times a day. Like, oh, look at that. That's something else. That's something else that I wanna, I could look at. I could explore for myself and how is it that I wanna show up in this moment  for my child.

Mm. And I'm curious,  I'm curious if you see  like a difference in the roles of moms and dads as parents. Hmm. I

think,  I

think that a part of what speaks to me in working with parents and families is  being more of a container.  So that each person in the,  who identifies as parent,  gets to explore and unpack their own visions of who they want to show up as.  And, what, is this just messaging that was told to me? Do I want to hold on to this?

Or do I want to redo it? Whether it's a father or a mother.  And, I think, I think it's a yes, both, and that helps.  gets to choose essentially who they want to be as a parent and how they want to express, you know, in that role. And part of that's examining, you know, what their assumptions around how they would be as a parent are and whether or not they want to, you know, follow through on that or what they want to change.

And, and then the two parents together, you know, get to sort of decide together, like, oh, um,  Yeah, I think, I like that a lot. I like, I like the sort of, the freedom and the agency to both honor like, dad as dad and mom as mom, assuming that this is a, you know,  hetero couple, right? Um, and the  sort of,  The freedom from sort of traditional roles and traditional expressions of those roles.

Um, but also the freedom to embody maybe some of the traditional expressions of those if that's what feels in alignment with authentic self. That's really cool. That is exactly it. for saying it that way.  Because  And I think it's really about bringing consciousness to it versus just kind of playing out what we've been given in our own parents or things that have been passed on to us.

Yeah, that's

what I hear you saying is like sort of thinking about what kind of parent I want to be and then allowing my kids to  Bring that out in me, shape me as a, as a parent and, uh, you know, doing my own healing in the service of my kids healing. Yes. Yeah. I even think about it as like, well, here I am. I have a nine and a 12 year old raising and they are also raising  me.

I am a 12 year old parent  and I feel like it goes hand in hand.  Nice. Yeah. You've been parenting for 12 years. Yeah. Your developmental stage as a, as a parent is 12. Yeah. Absolutely. And then 9 again. Like, you're back in 9.  Whether you like it or not. Right. And it's almost like, same, same, but different. Like, oh, I remember this in terms of like, what I know  as someone who understands child development.

And, wow, this is a different person and how they're expressing that. Within this age and phase. Yeah. So dynamic, the way that works. Yeah. And then I am also dynamically different as my second 9-year-old. How have I changed in these years and how has that play out and  Yeah. Wild.  Yeah. My, my  current two and a half year old is definitely getting a different father as a two and a half year old than Hazel or Zeer did.

Yeah.  So, um, connection parenting. Why is connection parenting what you practice and support?  So,  to me, as parents, we  we're busy people, , we might have one child, two, three job partnership, all sorts of things. And, um,  connection based parenting.  It feels like the most efficient, effective, research based modality or roadmap of parenting as far as it,  as far as I've found, personally and professionally.

Um, it is brain based,  um, and it is attachment based, and these are things that Um,  so it feels like it's a win in terms of effectiveness for long term growth and optimization for our children, but it also feels the most empowering and roadmap or compass for us as parents. Plus the bonus is that it's like a playground for our own.

Um, so how, how does that, how does that work? What about it  is empowering? Is it just, is it no, is it understanding what's going on for the kid and then being able to attune and connect with them more effectively? Like, what is it about, about this, the connection parenting sort of system that, that. Right. Is effective and that works so well.

So I think that there's a number of things. One is taking the child's development into consideration, like what is this brain actually able to do at two years old, or seven years old, or twelve years old? Where are they in their actual biological abilities?  So taking that into consideration, and also knowing that how we grow brains, how we link their.

Their prefrontal cortex how we do their upstairs and downstairs brain as Dan Siegel Dr. Dan Siegel talks about how we connect them is Through connection. So if we want to teach children and optimize their skill set  we need to do that through connection and we need to be looking at this child as Very much under construction,

Mm-Hmm. . And when we come from that place of humility of like they're under construction, they're actually doing the best they can in this moment. And for me as a parent, how do I meet them there? And then how do I like take that next step to optimize them or teach them the next skill that they might asking for us for, for, for us to do.

Mm-Hmm,  . We can do that through connection. And we know that from the brain research that when a child or anyone's brain is in a state of relaxation  and we are amygdala to amygdala calm,  um, that we, Or then optimize their ability to learn.  What about those moments when  it like feels like they're not actually doing their best?

Like they could do so much better and like,  yeah. Yeah,  I mean, and I can say that in the last 24 hours that has been a feeling of mine. I am in parent camaraderie. These are thoughts and feelings that we all have as parents, like, is this really the best you can do?  And, um, I think for myself, and relying and remembering  the science, and using it as a mantra to help, like, use as a soothing balm,  to help us move our child, optimize our child and ourselves in that moment, like, it is important for us to, like, remind ourselves.

That, that's bomb B A L M, right? Not B O M B. Cause, cause, oh, okay. Yeah.

Yeah. So, um, the word connection I'm hearing on at least three different levels, like you're talking about helping kiddos connect, you know, um, upstairs, downstairs, brain. Uh, integrate, right? You're talking about connecting with kiddos as a mechanism or as a, uh, pathway to help them make those connections.

And you're talking about connecting with other parents.  So there's like these three levels that you're talking about. I love that.  I'm connecting, you know, me as a parent feeling connected to my child.  Right? And building that attachment, building, continuing to like, kind of put more money in our connection bank, um, which is, one, makes this whole thing super fun, and you know, that piece, but also optimizes them  in terms of growing new skills, being able to access their upstairs part of their brain, and also  help them them.

have the relationship so that when I am giving them a directive or I need them to get in the car seat or whatever, doesn't mean they're gonna go all the time, like, LA, la, la, la I'm going in. But I have put in the time and effort where they feel really seen. And it optimizes the opportunities for them to feel in flow with us and do the things that us parents are asking them to do all the time.

Um, because we're in control of their scheduling even though it doesn't necessarily feel like it at times. Like when you're like, get that two and a half year old into the car.  For example, yeah. For example, for any time. Yeah. Um, and then also the other piece, I appreciate you saying that because it's also a connection to self.

Right? Um, parenting is this really interesting experience where we can really,  if allowed the opportunity, feel a different or deeper connection to ourselves and also to the child within us about  how we were parented, what our relationship is to different feelings, whether it's anger, rage, um, vulnerability.

And so there's that connection that we get to those.  Yeah, get to.  Sometimes have to. Yeah. Kicking and screaming. Yeah. Yeah.  But I really appreciate when, what you're saying, when I'm connected to myself, which sort of in my language would be like when I feel grounded, present, um, not hijacked, not dissociated or disconnected.

When I'm  Uh, embodied when I'm present, I can better connect with my kids and that connection  allows my, my kiddo to feel safe enough to, um,  to connect with themselves. Right? So yeah, you're, you're describing something that's scientific, but it's also quite, uh,  logical and, and. I can see how it plays out.

Yeah.  And just to name that like, um,  that we had a call a couple weeks ago and I got to talk through something with my kiddo and so just to paint the picture of what, what it worked, what what it feels like to work with you Jenny is, you know, to  to have the opportunity to talk through a challenge that  I might not talk through with anyone else  because we don't, you know, I don't, I don't know.

And then to have you ask me questions from curiosity and, and to have you listen. And there was something about me being able to process out loud, like not even process, but just tell my story. And for you to  listen, I don't know, that word keeps coming up like.  appreciate and validate and, um, you know, I, I was left feeling not just heard, but like normal and, you know, not crazy.

And like, you're in this with me  and. You know, you offered just some reframes and some perspective that allowed me to think about it differently. And then you suggested like, you know,  me thinking and playing out sort of a, you know, how I might want it to play out. And so it was like a rehearsal for the next time.

And so I left the call feeling really supported, um, and also like hopeful and inspired. So it was amazing. You're amazing. so much. It's such an honor. And for sharing that piece because  it feels like  so healing to feel heard as a parent. We're doing this in isolation in our own little boxes which anthropologically is not ideal.

You know, logistically, emotionally. Nine out of 10 anthropologists do not recommend that. Do not recommend.

It, it is so healing within itself just to feel heard and that validation piece. And  a part of what is my um, heart,  my heart's passion is offering that space to parents. Because how do we truly do that for our kids?  How do we truly do that from a space of like, abundance and wellness? Especially if it's coming at us.

If you have two kids, three kids, however many times a day, they want to be heard, right? They want to be heard because their cup spilled, and it was the worst thing, and then this happened, and why is this happening, and this person has this at school, or whatever it is. And we were kind of being asked to be this container of listening, and  in, in,  As community and, and the work that I see is giving ourselves that space and being that space so that we can also feel heard so we can be those hearing places.

Yeah, yeah. And, um, you know, it's interesting because Well, two things. One is that whenever I've, I've  received support and guidance from you, it's, there's that deep sense of like, ah, someone's hearing me and like has been here and knows what it's like. And, and, and that like is amazing in and of itself. And then you also.

Are this like a well of tools and ideas and strategies and so this, so there's this beautiful, like you said, chance to sort of  dump,  um, to, to feel heard so that, oh, now I, now I know what I'm going to get to offer my kid. My kid's gonna get to feel the way I do right now if I'm like actually listening to them.

You're also modeling for me what it, what it looks like and is like to listen. And then you're like, okay, now let's talk some like, okay, what's like,  think about what's going on here, analyze what's going on here, what, what's going on for them. But, you know, and like, both of our wives are therapists. You know, we're both coaches.

Dave is a therapist. Like,  There's a way in which like,  I can do this for strangers, but like me and Rachel, it's like, we'll both be like, what do we do? You know, it's like, well, let's call Jenny,  you know, and then it's like, Jenny will know. And then, and then you can also hear us in a way that like, we can't hear each other.

And so just, there's something really, yeah, beautiful and powerful about, um.  About all of that.  Yeah. And you know what, it's just what you said, it was almost like,  painting another picture of community, right? Like,  we, you know, the way that you and Rachel show up, are being asked to be in service and show up for your kids, and that you also need to be held and, and, and, and, and, all the way back.

We're just  meant to do this in community. And that feels like,  Yeah, like a political, it feels big for me.  Yeah, important for  raising children. I mean, what could be more important than, you know,  tending to, to our kids and  how are we supposed to do it without each other, right? Yeah. And like, it's harmful to,  to isolate.

It is. Yeah.  I think we also have all sorts of stories where I'm like,  I'm supposed to just know how to do this. Right? Like, I remember the day where I like, packed up my first kid, got in the car to go home, or maybe some people were at home when they had their child, or maybe their child came to, however way, and like, we're just supposed to know how to do this, and um, it can feel so isolating, and terrifying, and sad, and confusing.

Um, and there's a lot, I think there's a lot of reasons for that, and I  feel so strongly about  taking,  taking, um,  Changing that, just changing that. Well, and I, I, I have an inkling of a suspicion that like, in addition to helping parents, whether it's one on one or two on one, that you'll also be weaving, weaving parents together in all sorts of ways, whether that's like explicitly in your offerings, or sort of, In subterranean ways, like, like witnessing you as a community member and as a connector.

I have no doubt that, um, you'll be fomenting that. And I think that, like, yeah, when  you do the work with the Council of Fathers, it's like, it, it's so powerful just to, like, be with a group of other, of other, of other parents, other dads in this case, but like, and I know that moms love being in groups of other moms.

Yeah.  It's true. And, um,  I'm doing a virtual group and an in person group once a week  to talk about, it'll be topic based and skill based, and that'll be a part of the group. And then another part is just us being able to be there, creating that container of space to be there for each other.  And when we're talking about the power of being listened to or heard, inherently we'll create that community.

Oh, this is another pyramid that I can go to and talk to about this and we're all in it together,  alone together,  and helping each other rise  to our next level of optimization. Beautiful. Can I ask you like a practical question? Sure. Dads in counsel  bring up anger as an emotion that  comes up  sometimes for the first time for, for dads, like  Not like they've never been angry before, but they never thought of themselves as an angry person and then all of a sudden a screaming baby in the middle of the night, or a screaming toddler in the middle of the day, or,  or a screaming spouse in the evening, you know, whatever it is, all of a sudden something is getting surfaced that, uh, is unfamiliar and a little bit like, um, overpowering  and  And I can certainly relate to that, you know, the calm, cool guy that never gets mad until, Oh my gosh, the most important time in my life to keep my cool.

Um, and now I'm, I'm watching myself lose, you know, flip my lid as, as Dan Siegel says.  So, yeah, I'd love to just hear your thoughts on how to work with that. anger or or even just being triggered as a parent. How do you work with that with parents? I love this question. I especially love it  because I think it's part of the recipe that we can be in as parents of like feeling shame around it, um, which keeps it quiet,  right, and keeps us isolated.

So I think it's really important. I'm so grateful for the Council of Fathers to  Um,  and bring it out so that we can see it and we can start learning about it and,  you know, welcoming it into the room and having it sit right next to us and learn about our anger. And I think it's really interesting, Dave, that you said,  you know, for you it was, what?

Like I never saw myself as this. This is like. It's like switching how I see myself or for some people it's like, Oh yeah, you know, this doesn't surprise me. Or maybe for some people they're like, I had a lot of this growing up and I told myself I wasn't going to be like this and now I am. What do I do with that?

It feels really sad  and scary and hard and lonely.  So I think there's a lot, a lot here. And I think it's. Again,  Council of Fathers, myself,  I want to normalize that, first and foremost, around

seeing anger, having a relationship with anger that might feel very new and different,  as from becoming a parent.  And I know for me, I feel like my shoulder is in a deep sigh of relief because  I think a part of what we do  as humans is we want to like push things away that don't feel good or don't feel right  and a part of the side relief is around like normalizing and welcoming in anger as a feeling.

Maybe not necessarily how I played it out when I got mad about X, Y, and Z with my kid. I don't feel great about how it unfolded. But how do I start being in conversation and in relationship to my anger?  So, I mean the first thing is that we all come from different families that showed us either in direct or indirect ways  Is anger okay?

Am I allowed to feel angry? Are only certain people allowed in my family to be angry?  All those kinds of things, right? So a part of it is what were the messages that we received about anger as a kid?  I'm giving ourself the time, the space, whether it's in Council of Others. or with a, you know, mentor, a parent support, like, what was that like for me?

Um, giving that, like, younger person in me some time to think about that and, and, and allow it to be heard.  So, I mean, I think it's really normal that, you know, for a while you're just kind of like, I'm not an angry person. That is not my flair. And then adulthood happens, and you're still like, alright, I'll get mad here and there, but it's not a big deal.

Well, then you become a parent, and like, it can feel like rapid fire. You're not sleeping well, you have so much more to manage, and all of a sudden, like, this anger is coming up, and you're just like, what is happening? Right? I think a lot, like, there's so much to be said about that.  Part of it as, you know, Society as parents, we're not very supported the way that we're structured as a society here is not, we're not supported.

Um, there's a lot there but,

but I think that it's important to  just talk about that, the anger and the rage that enters when we become a parent. Um,  that it can bring us to our knees in humility.  So.  I think a part of my work is reminding us as parents and humans that we're also still in our unfolding and our becoming. And that feeling anger arising in us is an opportunity for us to rise in our skill levels that we haven't possibly been pushed or taught to do originally or yet.

And for our child's sake as well as our own sake, it's an opportunity for us.  Of course, his parents were like, I could use a little less opportunity to grow. Give me a break. And it is that anger is  interestingly a necessary part of the human condition. And maybe just as individuals, we haven't been taught or know how to use it as a helpful medicine quite yet.

No, that was, I mean, one thing that's just.  showing up for me in hearing this is,  um, that a big part of the problem is like the demonization of anger and, and the, um,  There's not, like, a learning around, around how to use it. And, and anger can cause harm. It can cause a lot of harm, but it doesn't have to. And it usually only causes harm  if and when, like, we don't know how to be with it, or metabolize it, or move it, or And Um, and if, and part of why we don't know how to is because, you know, well, no one else gets angry and I never see anybody else gets, you know, I've actually had the experience of like getting angry in public and then, you know, being shamed by certain people, even as an adult, you know, like.

And, or, and if not, maybe explicitly being shamed by them feeling shame of like, Ooh, I let myself, like, express anger, you know, and, or checking in was like, Was that okay? I mean, I, I, I tried not to be too intense and, but like, I was just trying to set a boundary and be very clear about that. So, um,  yeah, just, just, there's a lot of, uh,  ambiguity around what is okay and isn't okay with regards to anger.

And, and then there's a lot of like, sometimes clarity around what's not okay with anger. And, and, but then it's, then it's like, well, what is okay? Yeah. Right. And again, it's this interesting kind of,  us raising our children and our children raising us, right? So, as a parent.  I want to welcome all the parts of my children, including the angry part, right?

And so part of my work, whether it's helping support a parent or supporting my kids, is saying yes to that feeling.  And probably a no to them hitting their brother out of anger, right? So it's like, how do we also say like, yes to the feeling? And what's it, a tap on the shoulder, what's the anchor trying to tell me as a messenger?

Is it telling me that a boundary's been crossed and I haven't set that with my kids? Or, and I need to do some, you know, conversations with them around what isn't okay or not okay and then just keep setting that. Is it a limit that I need to set?  Is it a fear coming up for me?  That I'm worried about  how my kid is going to be viewed?

Or  I worry that if they never say thank you, they'll, if they don't say thank you now, they'll never ever ever say thank you. So I have to do something in this moment to make them an okay adult someday. So  I think anger can be such a messenger on our values,  our promises to ourself, our dreams and aspirations, um, for our child and ourselves.

And if used as  Um, a tool. It can be one of our more powerful ones. And, of course, when we lose it, which inevitably that also happens in my house as well, how do we also use anger as a teaching moment, a moment for us to teach about repair, and that we're also humans, and we're still, still in our becoming.

So how do we use that also as medicine and learning for our kids?  I love that. I love that. So if, you know, if I came to you and we were talking about anger, we would sort of strategize around, you know, how to work with  shame when it comes up. It sounds like  how to, how to use anger in a healthy way, like get clear about what it's trying to say.

And.  How to repair or reconnect with kiddos after  I flip my lid or they flip their lid, right? And, and using it to connect actually, right? That's, that's the ultimate goal is to,  is to be in connection and to reconnect when we're, when we're out of connection.  I'm forgetting the actual stats, but it's like the importance of repair is dramatically higher than,  it's more important the repair than is how many times we rupture.

So,  um, using a rupture as an opportunity to actually be in more connection to our children, to ourselves, to our partners. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for that.  Yeah, that's wonderful.  Yeah. So,  lastly,  we just wanted to let people know how to reach you.  Like if someone wants to get support from you, how do they find you?

I'm also available  for Zoom calls,  um, so I'm available for all sorts of things. I walk in the park, wherever you're, you know, wherever, um, where  it makes sense to meet and connect. It feels good. Yeah, awesome. Thank you so much for being here and for talking with us. And Noah, you got anything else you want to share?

Yeah, um, well I have, um, Um, first I'll put the, I'll put the link in the show notes obviously, um, but I have a question. If you could make a billboard for parents  and, you know, that every parent would, would see what, what would you want to put on that billboard? I love that question.  The picture of this billboard.

You can take your time because I'll just cut out the silence. I love this question. We can.

Would you want it to be done by 2. 15? Yeah. Okay. We can always splice another question back in. I got you  so much I want to write on this book. I love that. It could be a giant. I know. Maybe

something like,  Slow down and connect.  Heal our relationships.  Heal the world. No, hold on.  Slow down and connect.

Heal through relationships.

Heal ourselves.  Heal the world.  Hmm.  I love that. And I love, um,  I love the way that, you know, expressed in that and in everything that you do is this way of holding, like, The preciousness and an importance of this, like, individual relationship, this individual parent child connection,  and how that is such a part of, like,  The entire world, right?

And that we can't, you know, wish or dream or hope for world peace, you know, without hoping for or working towards peace in our own home, you know, and peace doesn't necessarily mean avoiding conflict. It means knowing how to be in conflict in a loving way and in a connected way. And so, um, yeah, I really appreciate that.

Exactly.  Thanks, Noah.  so much for. for  reaching out and inviting me and also inviting this conversation and being a part of a movement that sees parenting as a

very, very important job,  that sees parenting as valuable and  as something that

I just really appreciate what you're doing out in the community.  For fathers and parents,  bringing parents together and  highlighting the importance of this work. And the  brutal, as Glennon Doyle would say,  the beautiful, brutal journey that it is. And that it's really important to do it in community and to not feel alone.

Thank you for the work that you're doing and how it ripples out into the world. Thank you.  Thank you. It's  our honor and delight. I'm grateful that we, we've been able to, to  Make a contribution, however big or small, right? In this way. I

mean, I think that just, yeah, that also touches on that piece of like,  the way This community, like, like kids shouldn't just be parented by their own mother and father, but like, by their sort of aunts and uncles, whether those are blood aunts and uncles, or friend aunts and uncles, or both. Yeah.  Thank you, Jenny.

I'm thinking, I want to ask you another question, and maybe we'll splice it in, and maybe we won't, or Do you have another question in mind?  No, I'm just Can you put it before? Yeah. Because then I was thinking we could take the last of the question with the website and put it at the end.  I don't, no, I think that's good even before the, because I think you want to like sneak that in and, but then  like have more good yumminess.

Oh, okay. For the people who continue to listen. Cool.

Um, I was just going to ask,  um,  Like, what do you love about different ages of kids? And like, do you have a favorite age that you're most excited about? Or, I mean, I know you,  right? There's the spectrum and the breadth and

The zone I'm in. It

is really fun. The conversations and  the  abilities and, um, the new Independence that it's asking of, and I'm  really enjoying this.  Ooh, and  I also really appreciate preschool age.  I think that is such a  fun, wild  time. And also exhausting and hard.  Um,

you know, my, one of my favorite ages and developmental stages as other people hanging out with other people's kids.  Which is true, and it's just true. I love to be able to relive those times, but it's from a place of, like, I don't, I don't, I'm not doing all the other things that are really hard. Um,  which is hilarious and a joy for me is, you know, spending time with a two and a half year old that actually isn't mine.

Um, and really being able to see that.  phase with more clarity than when I was in it myself.  And giving those parents a break. You know, what's crazy, Jenny, is the, that we've been just talking about your relationship with parents, but your relationship with kids is also so precious. Like you're, you're also, I mean, I love how you interact with my kids.

My kids love you.  But there's just this way that you're so.  I mean, you can tell you, you love them as people, not as children. There isn't this like top down kind of thing that some parents have or discomfort around talking. You're, you're like, you light up when you see. Children and you like to be in the classroom with them and helping them knit and stuff like that.

I mean you Yeah, I just really appreciate how you are with kiddos too. And I think that's important for your work like you're not just parent whisperer you're you  You speak the language of, of kiddos and you have an understanding of them because you spend time with them and you listen to them and you get how their brains work and how they think and, and how they feel and how they act because you're in there with them.

You're not just observing them from afar.  So I, I feel like that's important for the work that you do.  Um, I appreciate that. I, um, I had to volunteer yesterday and do,  you know, a restorative justice moment with some third grade students and  it really is  so helpful  and also a passion of mine to be able to be in relationship to kids and help them understand themselves And help them work through things,  um,  as a part of the work too.

Yeah. I did not learn this stuff. Uh, and I think, I know that the stuff  that I have, a lot of the information that I have learned,  becoming a parent,  um, and even since getting my master's degree, things are just We're learning so much more about the brain and getting so much more information. I think,  um, I don't know, when we were being parented, I think there was like a parenting book and no internet.

So, I think that our parents  did the best they could and, you know,  a lot of things they didn't know about.  Yeah, and it's sort of been your mission to,  to become that. Yeah. And to learn, learn what  wasn't available.  Yeah.

Right.

Yeah, I can relate to all three of those.  Yeah.  Right?

You guys. Yeah.  That was great. Awesome. Yeah, that was cool. Did it babble too much? No. It made sense? Everything made sense. There was no babbling. Okay. There wasn't even like a lot of ums and likes.  It was very like fluid.  And the longer pauses were really easy to cut out.  Yeah. Did you stop? No, I kept it going.

I don't know why. It's just like  Yeah. I'm actually, I'm actually, um,  I know. I was actually considering, well, either way, you just cut it when it's over.  I'm gonna edit it, yes. Um,  There was something about, um,  the idea of,  oh, I had this idea of being like,  you know, splicing into the beginning, like,  Stay, stay tuned after it's over for like, some extra bonus questions with Jenny and then adding those last two questions, like after, but, uh, or, as opposed to splicing them before.

Just for something fun and different, but, we'll see. Okay.

And welcome to the Council of Fathers podcast. I'm Noah. This is Dave. And we're here to explore the wild journey we call fatherhood. We're here today with a very, very special guest, our dear friend, Jenny. Hi there. Hi, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you so much for coming. I'm  Um, Jenny Sandler is a Boulder based parent support professional, a.

k. a. Parenting Coach.  And she is amazing, and she has helped me and my family so much, so many times. Um, she has a Master's in Social Work, and has done training with the Denver Family Institute, and she's been a practice, uh, therapist for She's been here for years and is a licensed social worker and she's so honored to be working with parents and we're so honored to have her here with us.

She has two kiddos, nine and eleven, twelve. Nine and twelve. Nine and twelve. Jenny! It's so good

to be here. Thanks for being here. Thank you for asking me. I'm so touched and honored. Yeah, well part of the reason we  We know your skill set very well. Both Noah and I have benefited from your skill set.  Part of the reason is that we sometimes ask for feedback about the show and  people are like,  and uh, who better  than you?

The other reason is that you've just started a new, um, adventure, a new, um,  Yeah, a new,

a new thing, a new  journey,  and we're really excited to have you share that with our listeners. Like you're, you're offering something that we really want folks to hear about.  It's awesome. And, um,  yeah, I wonder if you could tell us a little bit about that, like what are you up to now? What are you offering?

Thank you. I,  well, it's interesting because there's a part of it that feels new and a part of it that feels so very old and more like a stepping into the next chapter of it. Um, but I am here to support parents and their parenting journey. Uh, and I came to it from my own humble space of,  uh, it was very hard for me, my initiation into parenthood.

And I really sought and looked for mentors in ways where this would feel really good for me and would be a place of healing and support for me and also for my children. Um, and so that is what I'm passionate about now. And so  what I, what I do for our clients is offer that on a one, you know,  one on one situation or with the couple.

And then also in a group format, because we're not meant to be doing this alone. And so the more we can do this in community, um, I think the better for everyone.

The journey of parenthood.  Um, I really think of it. Um, what comes to my mind is like almost an initiation over and over again.  Um, and these opportunities for us to  understand ourselves within the context of these incredible  beings that are our children. Um.  And have a mirror up for what it is that we need to look at and explore for ourselves so that we can come to the relationship and be in support and role model to these children  with ideally as much clarity as possible.

Um, but it really does feel like an initiation over and over and over again. And I mean, like.  On a daily or multiple times a day. I'm like, Oh, look at that. That's something else. That's something else that I want to, I could look at. I could explore for myself. And how is it that I want to show up in this moment  for my child?

I'm curious, if you see like a difference in the roles of moms and dads as parents. I guess I would think.

I, I think that a part of what speaks to me in working with parents and families is  being more of a container so that each person in the,  who identifies as parent  gets to explore and unpack their own visions of who they want to show up as and, you know,  Is this just messaging that was told to me? Do I want to hold onto this or do I want to redo it?

Whether it's a father or a mother.  And I think, I think it's a yes, both, and that helps.  Yeah. I mean,

you're saying like each parent  gets to choose essentially who they want to be as a parent and how they want to express. You know, in that role, and part of that's examining, you know, what their assumptions around how they would be as a parent are, and whether or not they feel involved in a change,  and, and then the two parents together, you know, get to sort of decide together, like, oh,  um,  yeah, I think, I like that a lot.

That's exactly it. The freedom and the agency to both honor, like, dad as dad, and mom as mom,  assuming that this This is a, you know,  hetero couple, right? Um, and  the sort of, the freedom from sort of traditional roles and traditional expressions of those roles. Um, but also the freedom to embody maybe some of the traditional expressions of those if that's what feels in alignment.

But that is exactly it. Thank you for saying it that way, because,  and I think it's really about bringing consciousness to it versus just kind of playing out what we've been given in our own patterns, our own thought,  um, in our own, from our own parents or things that have been passed down to us.  Yeah, that's what I hear you saying is like sort of thinking about.

What kind of parents

to  bring that out and shape me as a, as a parent,  I'm doing my own  in the service of  my kids, you know? Yes. I even think about it as like, well, here 12 year old that I'm raising and they are also raising me.  I am a 12 year old parent  and I feel like it goes hand in hand.

Yeah,  absolutely. Right. Right. And it's almost like same, same, but different. Like, Oh, I remember this in terms of like what I know  as someone who understands child development. And wow, this is a different person and how they're expressing that within this age and phase.  Mm hmm. Yeah.  And then I am also dynamically different my, as my second nine year old, how have I changed in these years and how has that play out?

And  as we're unfolding. Yeah. Wild. Yeah, my, my, it's definitely getting a different father. Absolutely. Yeah.

So, um, connection parenting.  Why is connection parenting what you practice?

So, uh.  To me as parents, we,  we're busy people. We might have one child, two, three job, partnership, all sorts of things. And, um,  connection based parenting  feels like the most efficient, effective research based  modality or roadmap of parenting as far as it goes.  As far as I've found personally and professionally,  um, it is brain based  and it is attachment based.

And these are things that we now know so much more about because of the brain brain, the brain based research.  Um,

so it feels like it's a win in terms of effectiveness for longterm growth and optimization for our children, but it also feels the most empowering. And more of a clear roadmap or compass for us as parents, plus the bonus is that it's like a playground for our own healing within  it. So how, how does that,  how does that work?

What about it? Understanding

what's going on for the kids,  you know,

So I think that there's a number of things. One is taking the child's development into consideration. Like, what is this brain actually able to do at two years old or seven years old or 12 years old, where are they in their actual biological abilities?  So taking that into consideration and also knowing that how we grow brains, how we link their.

Their prefrontal cortex, how we do their upstairs and downstairs brain as, uh, Dan Siegel, Dr. Dan Siegel talks about how we connect them  is through connection. So if we want to teach children and optimize their skill set,  we need to do that through connection and we need to be looking at this child as, um, Very much under construction.

And when we come from that place of humility of like, they're under construction, they're actually doing the best they can in this moment. And for me as a parent, how do I meet them there? And then how do I like take that next step to optimize them or teach them the next skill that they might be asking for us?

For, for, for us to do,  we can do that through connection. And we know that from the brain research, that when a child or anyone's brain is in a state of relaxation and we are amygdala to amygdala calm,  um, that we are then optimize their ability to learn.

Right.  Yeah.  Yeah. I mean, and I can say that in the last 24 hours, that has been a feeling of mine. I am in parent camaraderie. These are thoughts and feelings that we all have as parents. Like, is this really the best you can do?  And, um, I think for myself and relying and remembering  about the science and using it as a mantra to help like.

Use as a soothing bomb  to help us move our child, optimize our child and ourselves in that moment. Like it is important for us to like, remind ourselves that mantra.  It's totally not up, not that kind of, uh,  the bond is, you know, the soothing bomb. Yeah. So, um, the word can actually  three different levels  talking about helping kiddos connect,  you know, um, Upstairs, downstairs, brain, uh, integrate,  you're talking about connecting with  kiddos as a mechanism or as a, uh,

and you're talking about connecting with other parents,  so there's like these three circles that you're talking about. I love that. Totally. And connecting, you know, me as a parent feeling connected to my child. Right. And building that attachment building, continuing to like, kind of put more money in our connection bank.

Um, which is one makes this whole thing super fun and you know, that piece, but also optimizes them  in terms of growing new skills, being able to access their upstairs part of their brain, and also  help them. Have the relationship so that when I am giving them a directive or I need them to get in the car seat or whatever, doesn't mean they're going to go all the time, like, la, la, la, la, I'm going in, but I have put in the time and effort where they feel really seen.

And it optimizes the opportunities for them to feel in flow with us and do the things that us parents are asking them to do all the time. Um, because we're in control of their scheduling, even though it doesn't necessarily feel like it at times, like when you're like, get that two and a half year old into the car,  which I've been there.

For example, or any time, um, and then also the other piece, I appreciate you saying that because it's also connection to self, right? Um, parenting is this really interesting experience where we can really,  if allowed the opportunity, feel a different or deeper connection to ourselves and also to the child within us about how we were parented, what our relationship is to different feelings.

Whether it's anger, rage, um, vulnerability, and so there's that connection that we get to build as we go,  that we get to. I know  sometimes you're pushed into it. Mm-Hmm.  you're  saying

or disconnected when I'm that

connection.

Safe enough to themselves,  right? Yes. So yeah, you're, you're describing something that's scientific, but it's also quite.  Yeah.  I can see how it plays out. Yeah.  And just to name that like, um,  that we had a call a couple of weeks ago and I got to talk through something with my kiddo. And so just to paint the picture of what, what it worked, what it feels like to work with you, Jenny, is, you know,  to.

To have the opportunity to talk through a challenge that  I might not talk through with anyone else  because we don't, you know, I don't, I don't know,  then to have you ask me questions from curiosity and to have you listen and there was something about me being able to process out loud, like  not even process, but just tell my story and for you to,  Listen, I don't know, that word keeps coming up, like,  appreciate and validate and, um,  you know, I, I  was left feeling not just hurt, but like normal and, you know, not crazy.

And like, you're in this with me. Yes. And, you know, you offered just some reframes and some perspective. That allowed me to think about it different, and then you suggested, like, you know,  me thinking and playing out sort of a, you know, how I might want it to play out, and so it was like a rehearsal for the next time, and so I left the call feeling really supported, um, and also like, hopeful and inspired, so it was, it was amazing.

Amazing. Thank you so much. It's such an honor. And  thank you for sharing that piece because  it feels like  so healing to feel heard as a parent. We're doing this in isolation in our own little boxes, which anthropologically is not ideal and, and, you know, logistically, emotionally. Do not recommend, no, no, do not recommend  and  it, it is so healing within itself just to feel heard and that validation piece and  a part of what is my, um, heart,  my heart's passion is offering that space to parents because how do we truly do that for our kids?

How do we truly do that from a space of like. Abundance and wellness, especially if it's coming at us, if you have two kids, three kids, however many times a day, they did it, they want to be heard, right? They want to be heard because their cup spilled and it was the worst thing. And then this happened and why is this happening?

And this person has this at school or whatever it is. And we were kind of being asked to be this container of listening and  in, in.  As community and, and the work that I see is giving ourselves that space and being that space so that we can also feel heard so we can be those hearing places.  Yeah. Yeah.

And, um, you know, it's interesting because, well, two things, one is that whenever I've  received support and guidance from you, it's, there's that deep sense of like.  Someone's hearing me and like has been here and knows what it's like. And, and, and that like is amazing in and of itself. And then you also are this like well of tools and ideas and strategies.

And so this, so there's this beautiful, like you said, chance to sort of  dump.  Um, To, to feel heard so that, oh, now I, now I know what I'm going to get to offer my kid. My kid's going to get to feel the way I do right now. If I'm like actually listening to them. You're also modeling for me what it, what it looks like and is like to listen.

And then you're like, okay, now let's talk some like, okay, what's like,  think about what's going on here. Analyze what's going on here. What, what's going on for them. You know, I like.  Both of our wives are therapists, you know, we're both coaches.  There's a way in which like  I can do this for strangers totally like me and rachel.

It's like we'll both be like, what do we do? Right And then and then you can also hear us in a way that like we can't hear each other totally and so just That there's something really

Thank you. Yeah. And you know, it's just, when you said it was almost like  painting another picture of community, right? Like  we, you know, the way that you and Rachel show are being asked to be in service and show up for your kids and that you also need to be held and, and, and, and, and, and all the way back, um,  and how.

We are just meant to do this in community and, and that is, that feels like,  yeah, like a political, it feels big for me. Um, yeah. Raising  children. I mean, what could be more important than, you know, think to, to our kids and to do it without, and like, it's harmful to isolate. It is.

I think we also have all sorts of stories around, like, I'm supposed to just know how to do this, right? Like, I remember the day where I, like, packed up my first kid, got in the car to go home, or maybe some people were at home when they had their child, or maybe their child came to, however way.  And like we're just supposed to know how to do this and um, it can feel so isolating and terrifying and sad and confusing, um, and there's a lot, I think there's a lot of reasons for that and a part of me feels so strongly about  taking,  taking, um,  changing that, just changing that.

One, I, I  suspicion that like, in addition to helping parents. Whether it's one on one or two on one, that you'll also be weaving  myths together in all sorts of ways. Whether that's, like, explicitly in your offerings or sort of  in subterranean ways. Like, like, witnessing as a community member and as a connector.

I have no doubt  that.  I think that, like, yeah, when  the work with Council of Fathers, it's like, it's so powerful just to, like,

Right.  It's true. And, um,  I am doing. Virtual group and a in person group once a week  to talk about, it'll be topic based and skill based, and that'll be a part of the group. And then another part is just us being able to be there, creating that container of space to be there for each other. And when we're talking about the power of being listened to or heard, inherently it will create that community where, Oh, this is another parent that I can go to and talk to about this.

And we're all in it together. alone together and helping each other  rise to our next level of optimization.  Beautiful.  Can I ask you like a practical question? Sure. A lot of dads in counsel  bring up  anger as an emotion, thumbs  up,  sometimes for the first time. For dads, like  Not like they've never been angry before, but they never thought of themselves as an angry person.

And then all of a sudden, a screaming baby in the middle of the night, or a screaming toddler in the middle of the day, or a screaming spouse, you know, whatever it is. All of a sudden, something is getting surfaced that, uh, is unfamiliar and a little bit, like, um, overpowering. Mm hmm.  And I can certainly relate to that, you know, the calm, cool guy that never gets mad and says,  Oh my gosh, the most important time in my life to keep my cool.

Um, and now I'm  myself lose, you know, flip my lid as, as Dan Siegel says.  So yeah, I'd love to just hear your thoughts on how to work with that anger or, or even just being triggered as a parent. Do you work with that, with parents?  I love this question  and I especially love it because I think it's part of the recipe that we can be in and as parents of like feeling shame around it,  um, which keeps it quiet,  right?

And keeps us isolated. So I think it's really important. I'm so grateful for the Council of Fathers to talk about anger. Um.  And bring it out so that we can see it and we can start learning about it and,  you know, welcoming it into the room and having it sit right next to us and learn about our anger. And I think it's really interesting, Dave, that you said.

You know, for you, it was what's like, I never saw myself as this, this is like switching how I see myself or for some people it's like, Oh yeah, you know, this doesn't surprise me. Or maybe for some people they're like, I had a lot of this growing up and I told myself I wasn't going to be like this and now I am, what do I do with that?

That feels really sad and scary and hard and lonely.  So I think there's a lot, a lot here, and I think it's, again,  council of fathers, myself,  why I want to normalize that first and foremost around

seeing anger, having a relationship with anger that might feel very new and different.  As from becoming a parent.  And I know for me, I feel like my shoulder is in a deep sigh of relief because  I think a part of what we do  as humans is we want to like push things away that don't feel good or don't feel right.

And a part of the sigh of relief is around like normalizing and welcoming in anger as a feeling. Maybe not necessarily how I played it out when I got mad about X, Y, and Z with my kid. I don't feel great about how it unfolded, but how do I start being in conversation and in relationship to my anger?  So, I mean, the first thing is that we all come from different families that showed us either in direct or indirect ways.

Is anger okay? Am I allowed to feel angry? Are only certain people allowed in my family to be angry?  All those kinds of things. Right? So a part of it is what were the messages that we received about anger as a kid?  And giving ourself the time, the space, whether it's in council of fathers or with a, you know, mentor, a parent support, like, what was that like for me?

Um, giving that like younger person in me some time to think about that and, and, and allow it to be heard.  So I mean, I think it's really normal that, you know, for a while you're just kind of like, I'm not an angry person and it is not my flair. And then parenthood and then no, and then adulthood happens.

And you're still like, all right, I'll get mad here and there, but it's not a big deal. Well, then you become a parent. And like, it can feel like rapid fire. You're not sleeping well, you have so much more to manage. And all of a sudden, like this anger is coming up and you're just like, well, what is happening?

Right. I think a lot, like there's so much to be said about that  part of it as. You know, society as parents were not very supported the way that we're structured as a society here is not, so we're not supported. Um, there's a lot there, but.

But I think that it's important to just talk about that, the anger and the rage that enters when we become a parent, um,  that it can bring us to our knees in humility.  So  I think a part of my work is reminding us as parents and humans that we're also still in our unfolding and our becoming, and that feeling anger arising in us is an opportunity for us to rise in our skill levels that we haven't possibly been pushed or taught to do originally or yet.

And for our child's sake, as well as our own sake, it's an opportunity for us.  Of course, his parents were like, I could use a little less opportunity to grow. Give me a break. And it is that anger is  interestingly a necessary part of the human condition. And maybe just as individuals, we haven't been taught or know how to use it as a helpful medicine quite yet.

No,  that was, I mean,  one thing that's just  showing up for me and hearing this is. Um, not a big part of the problem is like the demonization of anger  and, and the, um,  there's not like a learning around, around how to use it. And anger can cause harm. It can cause a lot of harm. Yes. It doesn't have to. Yes. It usually only causes harm  if and when like we don't know how to be with it or metabolize it or move it or kill it.

And, um, and if, and part of why we don't know how to is because, you know, well no one else gets angry and I never see anybody else gets angry. I've actually had the experience of like getting angry in public and then, you know,  being shamed by certain people, even as an adult,  you know? And, or, and if not maybe explicitly being shamed, but feeling shamed, like, ooh, I let myself, like, express anger,  you know?

And, or checking in with like  Okay. I mean, I, I tried not to be too intense and, but like, I was just trying to set a boundary and  clear about that.  So, um,  yeah, just, just, there's a lot of, uh,  ambiguity around what is okay and isn't okay with regards to anger. And then there's a lot of like, sometimes clarity around what's not okay,  anger.

And, and, but then it's. It's like, well, what is okay? Right. Right. And again, it's this interesting kind of  us raising our children and our children raising us, right? So as a parent,  I want to welcome all the parts of my children, including the angry part, right? And so part of my work, whether it's helping support a parent or supporting my kids, is saying yes to that feeling.

And probably a no to them hitting them, their brother out of anger. Right? So it's like, how do we also say like, yes to the feeling and what's it a tap on the shoulder? What's the anger trying to tell me as a messenger?  Is it telling me that a boundary has been crossed and I haven't set that with my kids or, and I need to do some.

Um, you know, conversations with them around what isn't okay or not okay. And then just keep setting that, but is it a limit that I need to set?  Is it a fear coming up for me?  Um, that I'm worried about  how my kid is going to be viewed or.  I worry that if they never say thank you, they'll, if they don't say thank you now, they'll never, ever, ever say thank you.

So I have to do something in this moment to make them an okay adult someday. So  I think anger can be such a messenger on our values,  our promises to ourself, our dreams and aspirations, um, for our child and ourselves. And if used as. Um, a tool, it can be one of our more powerful ones. And of course, when we lose it, which inevitably that also happens in my house as well, how do we also use anger as a teaching moment, a moment for us to teach about repair and that we're also humans and we're still, still in our becoming, so how do we use that also as medicine and learning for our kids?

So, you know, if I came to you and you  would sort of strategize around, like, how to, about what it's trying to say, and how to repair, or with kiddos after they flip, they're using it to connect, actually. That's the ultimate goal, is to, is to be in connection and to reconnect when we're, when we're,

I'm forgetting the actual stats, but it's like the importance of repair is dramatically higher than it's more important the repair than it is how many times we rupture. So,  um, using a rupture as an opportunity to actually be in more connection to our children, to ourselves, to our partners.  Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, that's wonderful. So, like if someone wants to get support from you, how do they find you?

And I  work at the Niwot Learning Collective part of the time and part of the time at home. And I'm also available for Zoom calls. Um, so I'm available for all sorts of things. A walk in the park, wherever you're, you know, not wherever, but,  um, where it makes sense to, to meet and connect. That feels good.

Yeah. Awesome. so much for being here and for talking with us.

Make available. For parents, and, you know, that every parent would quickly see what, what we're doing. I love that question. Okay, I'm going to close my eyes and

picture this billboard.

Let's see, I love this question. Oh,

I love that. Maybe

something like,  Slow down and connect.  Heal our relationships. Heal the world. No, hold on.  Slow down and connect.

Heal through relationships,  heal ourselves,  heal the world.

Expressed in that and, and everything that you do  is this way of holding like the preciousness. And an importance of this like individual relationship is individual parent shy of connection  and how that is. It's such a part of like  the entire world, right? And that we can't, you know, wish or dream or hope for world peace, you know, without hoping for or working towards  peace in our own home, you know, and peace doesn't necessarily mean avoiding conflict.

It means knowing how to be in conflict in a loving way. And so, yeah, I really appreciate that. Exactly. Thanks Noah  and Dave. Thank you so much for.  Reaching out and inviting me and also inviting this conversation and being a part of a movement that sees parenting as a

very, very important job  that sees parenting as valuable and  as something that.

I just really appreciate what you're doing out in community for fathers and parents,  bringing parents together and  highlighting the importance of this work and the  brutal, as Glennon Doyle would say, the, the beautiful, brutal journey that it is. And that. It's really important to do it in community and to not feel alone.

So thank you for the work that you're doing and how it ripples out into the world. Well,

I'm lucky that our kids are in community together because they get to benefit from both of your fathering around them. So lucky me.

The way  this community, like, like kids shouldn't just be parented by their own mother and father, but like, by their sort of  aunts and uncles, whether those are blood aunts and uncles, or friend aunts and uncles, or both. Yeah. Jane. I'm thinking, I want to ask you another question, and maybe we'll splice it in, and maybe we won't, or Do you have another question in mind?

For the people who continue to listen. Cool. I was just going what are your favorite  ages of kids? And like do you have a favorite age?

I love the zone I'm in right now with a nine and a 12 year old.  It is really fun. The conversations and  the  abilities and, um, the new independence that it's asking of, and.  I'm really enjoying this.  Ooh. And  I also really appreciate preschool age. I think that is such a  fun, wild time and also exhausting and hard.

Um,  you know, my, one of my favorite. Ages and developmental stages is other people hanging out with other people's kids,  which is true. It's just true. I love to be able to relive those times, but it's from a place of like, I don't, I don't, I'm not doing all the other things that are really hard. Um,  which is hilarious and a joy for me is, you know, spending time with a two and a half year old that actually isn't mine.

Um, and really being able to see that. Age and phase with more clarity than when I was in it myself.  That's right. And giving those parents a break and it being joyful for everyone.  That's crazy. Jenny is the, that we've been just talking about your relationship with parents, relationship with kids is also so precious.

Like you're, you're also my kids.  Kids  love you.  There's just this way that you're so. I mean, you can tell you love them as people, not as children. There isn't this like, top down kind of thing that some parents have, or discomfort around talking. You're like,  you light up when you see children, and you like to be in the classroom with them, and helping them fit, and stuff like that.

I mean, you appreciate  how you are with kiddos, too, and I think that's important for your work. You're not just, uh parent whisperer, you, you,  you speak the language of kiddos and you have an understanding of them because you spend time with them and you listen to them and you get how their brains work and how they think and how they feel and how they act because you're in there with them.

You're not just observing them from afar. So I feel like that's important for the work that you do.  Thank you. I appreciate that. I, um, got to volunteer yesterday and do, you know, a restorative justice moment with some third grade students. And, um,  It really is  so helpful and, and also a passion of mine to be able to be in relationship to kids and help them understand themselves and help them work through things, um, as a part of the work too.

Yeah.

I did not learn this stuff. Yeah. And I think.  I know that,  um, a lot of the stuff that I have, a lot of the information that I have learned  becoming a parent, um, and even since getting my master's degree, it's, things are just, we're learning so much more about the brain and getting so much more information.

I think,  um, I don't know when, when we were being parented, I think there was like a parenting book and no internet. Yeah. So I think that our parents.  Um, did the best they could and no, I, you know, a lot of things I didn't know about.

And also wasn't a bit, uh, didn't feel available to me as a new parent.  Felt really lonely and confusing and  hard.