Fatherhood as Leadership - What it means to Father on Purpose
What changes when dads step into leadership — in their fatherhood, their marriages, and for each other.
What happens when a group of dads decides to lead themselves? In this episode, Noah and Dave sit down with Stefan and Robbie, two fathers from Denver who were part of the very first self-organized cohort of Fathering From the Heart — a council Stefan put together himself after noticing a quiet but persistent pull toward something deeper in his own fatherhood.
Stefan and Robbie talk candidly about what it took to say yes: the skepticism, the packed schedules, the "is this really for me?" hesitation — and what ultimately tipped the scale for each of them. They dig into the real shifts that came out of twelve weeks together: more self-awareness in the heat of a hard moment, more honesty with their partners, new family rituals (like a nightly grace their kids now fight over who gets to lead), and a clearer sense of what it means to hold a distinct, intentional leadership role at home — one that complements, rather than duplicates, their partner's.
The conversation also goes to some of the harder places, including a powerful discussion of one module's core teaching — "all change is loss, and all loss must be mourned" — and how Robbie moved from resisting that idea as a "victim mindset" to recognizing it as one of the truest things he's learned about becoming a father.
If you've ever wondered whether a men's group or a father's council is really necessary, or you're curious what it looks like to build one with the guys already in your life, this episode is for you.
Show Notes:
Guests: Stefan Virag and Robbie Allen — Denver-based fathers, friends, and members of the first self-organized Council in the Fathering From the Heart program. Stefan initiated and led the group; this is his second appearance on the podcast.
In this episode:
[00:00] Welcome — why hearing from "everyday dads," not just parenting experts, matters
[00:01–03] Stefan and Robbie introduce themselves and their families
[00:04–06] Stefan on losing touch with his fatherhood identity, a cold-plunge conversation that sparked the idea, and deciding to start a council
[00:06–07] How Stefan recruited six dads from his kids' school community
[00:07] What a self-organized council is, and how it differs from a Council-led group
[00:07–09] Robbie's hesitation, his wife's encouragement, and what tipped the scale for him
[00:09–11] Dave on the universal "itch" for deeper connection that most dads never act on
[00:11–13] Stefan on regret as motivation, hitting a professional plateau, and investing in himself personally
[00:13–15] How the council shifted Stefan's self-awareness and honesty with his wife
[00:15–17] Robbie on intentional family ritual — a nightly gratitude practice and a father-son camping trip
[00:17–19] Naming the leadership theme: fatherhood as a distinct, complementary role to a partner's
[00:19–21] Noah on each father's "unique flavor" and the value of "uncle-ing" each other's kids
[00:21–22] Robbie on being unexpectedly nourished by in-person, face-to-face community
[00:22–26] The module quote "all change is loss, and all loss must be mourned" — Robbie's journey from resisting it to owning it
[00:26–29] Stefan on "the goal is not perfection," losing a council member to a move, and the Wielding the Sword module (before / during / after)
[00:29–33] Responding to skeptics — "why do you even need a father's group?" — and the idea of communities of practice
[00:33–35] Closing reflections and thanks
Key quotes:
"The goal is not perfection." — Stefan
"Regret, deep regret, that I would be facing if I hadn't made this commitment was more uncomfortable to me than trying it." — Stefan
"All change is loss, and all loss must be mourned." — quoted from the curriculum
"Families need leadership, and the leadership role for a father is different than the leadership role of your partner." — Robbie
"The group gets a little smarter than any one individual." — Dave, on communities of practice
Mentioned in this episode:
Fathering From the Heart — Council of Fathers' 12-week program
Program modules referenced: rituals/ceremony, mourning and loss, wielding the sword
Self-organized councils vs. Council-facilitated groups
Transcript:
Noah: [00:00:00] Hi, and welcome to The Council of Fathers podcast. I'm Noah. This is Dave. And we're here to talk about the wild journey we call fatherhood. Uh, we're really excited about today's episode. We have two guests. We have Stefan and Robbie. Stefan and Robbie participated in our last cohort of Fathering From the Heart, and, were so kind to join us and just talk about, a little bit about their experience.
Noah: And, and I also, I think one of the reasons this was important for, Dave and I to do was because, you know, there's all those experts out there in the world, right? You've got, like, Becky Kennedy, and you've got, Daniel Siegel. There's all these parenting experts., And I think there's something really, , special and lovely about kind of just, like, everyday dads, you know? Like, we're just everyday dads, and so getting to hear [00:01:00] what dadding is like as an experience from you guys is, I think, important and special. , Dave, you got anything to add?
Dave: I think the gu- these guys are much better dads than Dr.
Dave: Becky, personally. That's my opinion.
Noah: Okay. So, , why don't you guys introduce yourselves? Just share a little bit about who you are, and, uh, then we'll, we'll dive a little bit deeper in. You wanna start, Stefan?
Stefan: Yeah. Thank you. I'm Stefan Virag.
Stefan: I live in Denver, and I have two kids. , I have a five-and-a-half-year-old and a four-and-a-half-year-old, a girl and boy respectively. , Love them, love them to bits. I, I- and I spend a lot of time with them 'cause I work from home.
Noah: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Stefan: , , Especially in the summer, , that, that balance between being a remote,, worker as well as, carrying many responsibilities within the home and being able to spend time with them.
Stefan: , And i've [00:02:00] been a follower and a, a part of past, uh, cohorts in the council and I'm almost 38, which is wild . Wow. But I, uh ... Yeah, no, I, I'm really happy to be here. And, um, yeah, it's, this is, this has been a special experience all around. Um- past and, , , I would imagine future.
Stefan: Yeah. Great.
Dave: Second time on the podcast too, I might add.
Stefan: That's- This is true. Yeah. This is true. With, with-
Dave: A returning guest.
Stefan: A few year,, uh, hiatus, but I'm back, yeah. Yeah.
Dave: Yeah. Better than before.
Robbie: Better than ever. , I'm Robbie Allen, also in Denver. , I am here because Stefan invited me and put out an invitation a while ago that I was a little skeptical of at first, and, , ultimately really glad that I was a participant in, um- Mm-hmm
Robbie: this council of fathers that we cultivated and built together over the first half of the [00:03:00] year. , I've got two kids as well. , They're about the same age as Stefan, and I moved to Denver six years ago from San Francisco for a career opportunity, a company I've been building. And, um, I think one of the maybe areas in my life that felt like a bit of a gap was, , just a community of men that I was a part of and, and that was one of the things that, , I didn't expect necessarily to get out of this, , but I did.
Robbie: And so, um, it's been a great experience for me, and I'm happy to be on the pod. So thanks for hosting me.
Noah: Cool. Thank you, Robbie. , Well, I'm gonna circle back to that comment you made about, well, you, you came through one of our programs like two or three years ago, , and then came on the podcast after that, and then, , here we are a few years later.
Noah: And I'm curious , y- you weren't like a one and done kind of guy. You, you felt maybe some thirst or hunger for something else, and I'm curious what that was like for you, how you knew , "Oh, I wanna do something else," or the timing is right, or, [00:04:00] yeah, just love to hear.
Stefan: Yeah, first I, I came out, I kind of lost practice, in what I learned in council three years ago, and I felt frustrated with, some of the habits that I was forming in fatherhood over last year.
Stefan: Uh, I invested a lot in myself professionally, but not enough personally. I had this moment in probably August last year where I felt a lack of identity or a lack of, or a, a lack of, uh, a deep connection to my heart and soul as a father. And- It prompted me to start thinking more about what I could do that could make me more connected to fatherhood, help remind me of the good habits and practices and frameworks that k- kinda guided me to a, a [00:05:00] more confident place, in fatherhood.
Stefan: And I was in a conversation with one of the dads who was in our Denver group. We were actually doing a cold plunge up here in November- Nice ... uh, late last year, right after the windstorm that came through here. And when we were out of the plunge and we were in the sauna, I shared with him that I've been wanting to fill this void of a leadership role, one that I, I wasn't necessarily, uh
Stefan: One that I kinda wanted in my, in my life, but not necessarily professionally, and I saw this opportunity and invite from both you and Dave in a, in a newsletter, I believe, that mentioned your announcement around this opportunity for either to join a council or to form a council that is, you know, with the close guidance of the both of you.
Stefan: I was like, "You know what? I just need to put it out there. I need to share it with somebody, and this will motivate me to actually take action."
Robbie: Mm.
Stefan: And [00:06:00] I was able to share it with this father, and he was so super stoked about the idea. I was like, "All right. In the next two weeks, I'm gonna g- I'm gonna get a list together of, of dads who I think would be a great fit, and, uh, I'm gonna start reaching out to them and shoot them a text."
Noah: Cool. Was that easy, or was that, like, nerve-wracking, or was that somewhere in between?
Stefan: Easier than I thought it would be.
Noah: Okay.
Stefan: The, the Fortunate part, about where my kids go to school and where Robbie's kids go to school, is that there's a lot of moments to say kind of the hallway highs at, drop-off and pickup-
Dave: Uh-huh
Stefan: that I was able to get to know all ... many dads familiar, or at least familiar to me. And having gone to social outings with them before, grab beers or going to a baseball game or a park play, uh, it, it was easy for me to come up with 10 to 12 candidates. Um, but I wasn't, I wasn't sure who ... how many people would [00:07:00] actually be enticed and committed-
Noah: Mm-hmm
Stefan: uh, to, to this idea.
Noah: Cool. Yeah. And how many ended up?
Stefan: Six.
Noah: Six.
Stefan: Yeah.
Noah: Yeah. , And just I'm gonna fill in the gap for any listeners who have, like, no idea what we're talking about. , It ... There's this program we created called Fathering From the Heart, and,, one of the ways dads can engage with it is being guided directly by, by Dave and I in discussion and in counsel
Noah: But one of the things that we're really excited about is empowering self-organized groups to, to be in the program together. And so, you get to step into a leadership role, somebody gets to step into a leadership role, and, and then the group as a whole gets to facilitate themselves, if you will, with some guidance and support.
Noah: And so Robbie, what was it like for you , when Stefan approached you? Is it ... Were you like, "The ... That's weird. I don't know."? Were you like, "Oh, I'm 100% in right away."? , What was your experience?
Robbie: Yeah, I mean, I was flattered that he thought of me, of course, [00:08:00] and, , i- for me, it was just like can I commit to this thing?
Robbie: Mm-hmm. It was like 12 weeks, , meeting on, , meeting for hour plus on a weeknight. , And my rational brain was like, "You're too busy. You're too busy for this." I'm the type of person who tends to over-commit to things. , Adding this additional thing at the start of the year, like, are you sure you wanna do it?
Robbie: So I was the last one in the group to say yes. I waffled a bit. , And I, you know, and I think in the end, , I kind of ... Stefan kind of rounded the group out and was kind to save a spot for me, and I, I jumped in like a week before I think we kicked off and got myself caught up. Um, and I'm so glad I did, but, but honestly, I was pretty skeptical at first.
Noah: - What tipped the scale in the end?
Robbie: Yeah. I think, like, I talked to my wife about it, and she was really supportive. I found out, , who else was in the group, and I knew some of the other men in the group that were a part of this [00:09:00] community that we were in. And I think ultimately...
Robbie: I, I had been feeling for a while, um, like there was a corner of my life that I was yearning to explore more - , broadly in the category of spirituality and, , connectedness. Mm. Um, and I just didn't really have a forum for that that wasn't just, like, me reading or, or kind of doing it after I put my kids to bed on my own.
Robbie: , And so that wasn't explicitly what I was told this was, but I thought, you know, maybe this would be an opportunity, , to explore that, and, and it was that and more. So, um- Okay ... that was kind of for me what tipped the scale.
Noah: Cool., Dave, you have a question?
Dave: No, I just wanna, like, highlight how, , incredibly, , ubiquitous that experience must be of,, dads , , having the itch for something deeper, , having the itch for connection with other [00:10:00] men and , never moving on it, never, - Mm
Dave: Following through on it. , It took a series of,, happenstances, , i'm so curious about that moment for Stephan too where you just decided that you wanted to step into personal leadership and how Robbie got to benefit from that,, and the other five men.
Dave: , I know I can resonate with that, Robbie, and Noah was sort of the impetus for me that series of thoughts. Wouldn't it be great? Eh, I,, life is busy, and I, I could just read a book when the kids go to bed.
Dave: I, I can relate to that thought process, and so grateful that Noah, put me in the awkward position of being a part of this all.
Noah: I'm grateful that you said yes.
Dave: Me too, yeah. stefan, what was that about? What happened? What happened that you,, you could have gone either way too, but you decided to stand into [00:11:00] it
Stefan: Regret, deep regret,, that I would be facing if I hadn't made this commitment was more uncomfortable to me than trying it , I think at this point in my career professionally, I f- I feel almost as a plateau. I'm riding a very gentle wave right now. Fortunately and unfortunately, there's pros and cons to it, but I'm not challenged right now as a leader, per se.
Stefan: Mm. And I'm, I'm- operating in a certain way that I have capacity to, and had capacity last year, and luckily this year still, to invest more in myself personally, and motivated to do that more than try to fill my cup more professionally. Mm. And that was my motivation. Like, there is no opportunity for me - professionally right now in the near term to challenge my leadership skills or to grow my leadership skills, and this was my moment that [00:12:00] I didn't want to pass up, was to explore this, 'cause I, I had already anticipated from being in council three years ago how special the bond is, - this brotherhood that has been established.
Stefan: But , the added benefit of doing it within a community that you're most familiar with is that you're gonna go deeper, and ... You're already friends with most of these guys. From my perspective, that's how it was formed, and I had this opportunity to,, play a connector role, but also go deeper with each of these men that allowed me to have more empathy, help, expand my listening skills, uh, uh, and all things that are, uh, transferable skills in a professional leadership setting as well.
Noah: And how do you feel like it's changed your experience as a dad also? [00:13:00]
Stefan: My, my presence, , I guess my awareness, I should say, increased my self-awareness to my feelings. They could be angry, frustrating type of feelings, or they could be- Uh, joyous feelings., , Either way, just awareness so that I can react and respond to how I, father my kids and how I parent with my wife these two children that we've brought into the world.
Stefan: Cool. Yeah.
Noah: Has it impacted your partnership?
Stefan: ... I, I have a, an inclination to share more, uh, my feelings that maybe, let's say, previous , to this recent council, I, I would have all this, these raging feelings that were hard to put a, put a name behind.
Stefan: Um, and for me to then share that with my wife in the moment or later on was really challenging for me. But because I was motivated to become, , a better [00:14:00] father, I was able to, uh, share more with my wife in real time of reactions that triggered me or, uh, decisions that I made, uh, maybe based now on values that were more clear to me.
Stefan: And so that has given me more confidence to, to just share more and more often.
Noah: Yeah. That's beautiful. I, I, you know, I just wrote a, a newsletter earlier this week, and I was talking about how I only recently kinda realized that my wife can't see through my thick skin to know what I'm feeling unless I say it out loud, and how I've been practicing that, and I'll say things in a kind of like, "This is obvious to you," but
Noah: And she'd be like, "No, I, I didn't realize you were feeling that way." Um, and so, yeah. Yeah. It's cool.
Stefan: That, that bit resonated with me.
Noah: Yeah. Yeah. Robbie, how about you?- What kind of things have you experienced in terms of your partnership and your relationship to your kids?
Robbie: Yeah,, my kids are young, you know, they're two and [00:15:00] five, and,, I remember the early days of newborns and, frankly, just feeling like kinda useless.
Robbie: , I felt like my job was mostly just to support , my wife., I wasn't ... As, as much as I tried, I was not the primary caregiver. And as my kids have gotten older and kinda gone from toddlerdom to now, like, little kids, and , my five-year-old is now approaching just being a, you know, a kid, , it feels like an opportunity to be, like, a bit more intentional just about, , how, what do I want the relationship to look like with my kid?
Robbie: And so, , for example, like, , one of the modules in the course talked about the importance of, like, ceremony and, and,, creating rituals and ceremony, and there were a couple specific things that, , we had already started to institute as a family, and I had , more formally instituted.
Robbie: , One of those things was just saying grace at dinner. Like a non-denominational, , grace. , A- an expression of gratitude that, , we've, , we've forced, , the Virog family into a couple times over the past week when we spent some time together. , And that's been a really nice thing [00:16:00] because our kids now, , are, uh, you know, begging to, , to be the leaders of that little ritual,, at dinner each night, right?
Robbie: And we've, we've pretty much... We haven't-- We've hardly missed , a chance to do that at dinner this year. And, and another example was when my, my youngest graduated into kindergarten, , I took him on a camping trip just, just for a night, , up in, , Golden Gate Canyon State Park. And, , he lit the fire for the first time, right?
Robbie: And we, like, we, like, built a little fire, and he did that. And so I think that it's just been, for me personally, like, those are examples of things where it's just being intentional and, like, realizing and owning the reality that nobody's gonna tell you what traditions and ceremonies and rituals and things you should go do.
Robbie: Like, those are things you need to decide to do. And I think especially in today's day and age, where there's just, there's less religious institution, there's less stuff in our lives that sort of package these things and give us templates and things to use. , I think for me, , the, both the support of the community of the group [00:17:00] we were in and, the frameworks of the module, , inspired me to go be, , more intentional about those things and, , just go make a couple things happen.
Robbie: And, , they're not all gonna work. They're not all gonna stick. But, , trying them and doing them , and getting feedback from the kids, um, has been awesome and, , they love that. They love the, the feeling of, , , there's a ceremony or tradition or something here that's important to ma- mark the passage of time.
Robbie: So, , that's what comes to mind, just, like, the intentionality of, of how I want my relationship with my kids to look.
Noah: Mm-hmm. Yes.
Dave: Yeah, there's this- That's
Noah: really good.
Dave: There's this theme, you know, with, with both of you around leadership, ? So you're, you're both, in a way, stepping into leadership intentionally in your family.
Dave: Not to say you weren't leading your family, co-leading your family with your spouse before, but there's something, Robbie, you're saying intention, you know, you're doing these things on purpose and, , structuring a little bit, you know? But [00:18:00] engaging in fatherhood intentionally is different than just, , winging it and,, supporting your wife and, hoping you don't mess up, ?
Dave: So, , that's, that's our hope. , It's, it's really nice to hear that- there's often a feeling with the dads we work with that, , they're not sure what to do or, or, , how to participate . , But-- I'm sensing in both of you there's a real satisfaction in the leadership role in your family
Robbie: Yeah, absolutely.
Robbie: And, also the clarity that it's important. That,, families need leadership, and, the leadership role for a father is different than the leadership role of your partner. Totally. Um, and, the validation of,, that intuitive feeling that in fact these are different roles that are, that are both very important but also different,, was, another element of this., Where I think again, like in [00:19:00] modern parenting and modern time,, , responsibilities converge and, like, blend, and I think the, uh, the exercise of, like, making fatherhood, , explicit, , was like it was clarifying for me. , But sort of like really defining and understanding what that means.
Dave: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Totally.
Robbie: Yeah.
Dave: Then your wife and you aren't playing the same position on the same team, right? You're like you're complementing each other and compensating for each other and passing to each other, right? And, and, and leveraging each other's strengths. Yeah. Nice.
Noah: , Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, both parents can be doing the laundry, both parents can be sharing in some of the tasks like cooking and cleaning and taking the kids to and from school, and there's still, , a distinct and unique quality that a dad is gonna bring, , versus a mother, in a hetero relationship.
Noah: And, you know, even two dads, I'm,, , [00:20:00] thinking about, like, Dave as a dad, who I get to witness and watch and, , in my community, all the dads that I am close with , and we all father in, , our own unique flavor of a way. But we also get to learn from each other and how we each father, and I don't know if you're there yet, but, like, we get to uncle each other's kids.
Noah: And so, you know, , I might be doing something with one of Dave's kids or, or we might all be hanging out together, and then my son's gonna learn, like, oh, Dad is a man in this way, and, Uncle Dave, is a man in this way, and , wow, that's, like, really special.
Noah: And , he might be too young to be able to articulate that, but, going back to the intentionality of like, well, how do I want to be a, a father in, in my family? And what, what is the... W- how do I wanna be in, in leadership? Where do I wanna take initiative? And,. I was going to ask about, , well, you mentioned earlier on this, this piece [00:21:00] around your curiosity and hunger for both connection and also something spiritual, soulful, I- I don't remember which word you used, and you didn't even realize ex- that that was sort of part of , what we were trying to offer and create f- ,, in this program.
Noah: I'm curious, , how you were fed and nourished and, , maybe how you weren't fed and nourished or, , where you're still hungry.
Robbie: Hmm. Yeah, , I think there's a lot ... For the way that I experienced this, um, this journey was, you know, th- through invitation, through Stefan, and then, uh, largely in person in, like, our weekly gatherings that we did in Stefan's living room.
Robbie: And, , that, I underestimated how nourishing that face-to-face interaction was for me personally. Like, I, I do a lot of my work, , virtually, there's a corner in my life that, , really, , yearns for ,, face-to-face community and interaction. And it's certainly not the only way you can experience, [00:22:00] um, you know, this, this council, but it was the way I did and, and I, I underestimated how much that , was gonna nourish me.
Robbie: , And I think where maybe, where was it undernourished or underfed, , I can't say., I think time will tell maybe a little bit as, as we s- we sort of, like, wrapped up this, , this first module together, like what carries over, , and remains kind of present in this fatherhood experience.
Robbie: What of the principles and frameworks and things that we learned, and then what are maybe some things that, , drift? 'Cause, , I'd be surprised if it all carries over. , So I think time will tell on , what parts from like a, , soul and spirituality perspective were, , a little bit less, , that just, , didn't withstand the te- test of time enough.
Robbie: So, I guess we'll see.
Noah: Was there, and this is a question for both of you, was there anything that, , challenged you or pushed you, and, , was that, , a good kind of challenge or a hard kind of challenge or-
Dave: robbie thought of something.
Robbie: Yeah, I'm trying to, I'm trying to put the words to it. In one of the first [00:23:00] modules, there was a quote, and we talked about this in person, the four of us,, , at Noah's house, and I think that , it had something to do with, , not trauma, but, ...
Robbie: Dave, what was, what was the quote? It was about, , pain or loss, and- All
Noah: change is loss ...
Robbie: and all loss must be mourned.
Noah: Uh-huh.
Robbie: And it was about mourning. So for me, like this whole concept of mourning, I found at first like a little abstract and frankly a little,, of a victim mindset, and it was hard for me to overcome this notion that I was a victim and, and needed to be, uh, I needed to overcome and mourn , the loss.
Robbie: And I think, like, I think what I, what I learned throughout the course of the, of the modules where I, like, landed on it was just that, , fatherhood is like a major evolution in our lives, and there's a part of you you leave behind in order [00:24:00] to sort of like carry forward as a father, and the acknowledgement of that is actually something that, very rarely happens.
Robbie: It didn't really happen for me. It was like the middle of COVID when our first kid were born. We were relocating from San Francisco to Denver. We were buying a house. Like, there was just a lot going on. And, um, you know, the 2020 or 2019 version of myself looked really different , than 2026. And so I that was a concept that for me, , didn't really stick at first, but, through the discussion in our group and through the input from the two of you, Dave and Noah, like I kind of came to understand that just, , processing these feelings and, owning the fact that you've changed and , , you're different, , and that that's good , and okay, um, was like a big part of the journey for me.
Dave: Nice.
Noah: That's really beautiful, and thank you for sharing. And just one thing that stands out to me is, um, it's precisely through the process of grieving or mourning- [00:25:00] That we go through the shift from, I think, victim to owning, ? It's, it's like this thing happened to me or I lost this thing, ? That is a place of...
Noah: That can be, not always, but can be a place of, of victimhood. And when we allow ourselves to really feel the loss fully, , and like you said, to own the experience and own the change that has happened, then I think it's actually like an empowering move. , I'm curious how that reflection lands.
Robbie: Yeah. I think turning it into, , strength and turning it into, , like just pro- yeah, processing the,, the feeling and to your point how I think you move past, , the mindset of being a victim to, I think frankly, the mindset of being a father. , , And, , the reality that their life is challenging and there will be challenges and continue to be challenges and, [00:26:00] um, the ability to experience those challenges in real time and then process what happened and move forward through it, , was another kind of through line and theme of this whole thing, and that that's ongoing.
Robbie: It's not a one-time thing. Mm-hmm. It, it's, it's just keeps happening and happening and part of how you build strength. , So yeah, , that was, , for me a big takeaway from this whole thing.
Noah: Cool. Thank you.
Stefan: The first thing I'll say that I was thinking about, , earlier today was, , the goal is not perfection.
Stefan: We're not aiming for perfection, and how powerful that reminder has been and still is. There was one father, in our council who often reminded us , and, , he just actually informed us that he's moving out of town.. He was somebody who was just a, a steady presence. It, it still is.
Stefan: , And that will som- be something that,, I'll miss in, the [00:27:00] connection, the in-person interactions that we had with him during our gatherings in council. But that
Stefan: is something that I need to remind myself often, especially now that we've finished meeting. We haven't set intentional time to gather again as a group. This news that was shared with us the other day by one of the dads has prompted us to try to meet one last time before he moves in, six weeks or so.
Stefan: But the lack of, like, scheduled cadences in which we are , gathering intentionally has Certainly hindered my, my own practice as a father-
Noah: Mm ...
Stefan: . and, as Robbie was saying, the in-person connection was massively helpful.
Noah: Mm.
Stefan: , But , not aiming for perfection is, is a really helpful- yet simple reminder for me so I can put less pressure on [00:28:00] myself every day.
Noah: That's good.
Stefan: Yeah.
Noah: Yeah. And it doesn't, I hear that, , not aiming per- for perfection doesn't mean you're not aiming for,, a little bit better, ? Right. Exactly. And, you get to strive,, to, to see, like, well, what can I do that's maybe a little bit m- either it's more effective or it's more compassionate or it's more kind in terms of relating, in terms of showing up, in terms of leading.
Noah: , But I don't have to do it perfectly.
Stefan: Yeah. You know? Yeah. Exactly. The wielding the sword module, , for some reason just keeps coming back to me. Mm-hmm. Thinking about before, during, and after and-
Noah: Mm-hmm ...
Stefan: how even if my learnings from before, during, and after a, an interaction with my child, those learnings may not inform the same type of interaction with that same child three days later.
Noah: Mm-hmm.
Stefan: It's just a matter of being present to the before, during, and after that I've been more , open and [00:29:00] receptive to my own thoughts and feelings each time maybe I'm, I'm riding, riding a storm. And,, that to me has been really helpful and just lives in the f- front of my brain.
Noah: Mm. Mm.
Noah: That's good. Until it becomes, yeah, just, like, woven in second nature.
Stefan: Hopefully.
Noah: Yeah. , Go ahead, Dave.
Dave: Well, I was just gonna say, , I can kind of hear dads out there, I know lots of dads who would be like, ", what's the big deal? Like, , being a dad, you just do it. , Why would you need or want to be in ,, a father's group?"
Dave: , This sort of sentiment of , it's not that hard. It's not that big of a deal. You just show up and,, do your thing. What might you say to that?
Robbie: I'd say it's probably not for everybody. And I think that , [00:30:00] if you're stuck into that kind of a mindset, I'm not sure how much time I'd try to convince you otherwise.,, If I were to go back in time, , to when I said yes to this and after, you know, I shared some of the initial reluctance I had, , mostly around logistics and other commitments, , I was always in this mindset of, , we've got this one precious life and being, , a great father is, , a really high priority for me, and I didn't necessarily feel like I had the tools to, , do that and to get better at that.
Robbie: , And so this was an opportunity to take a bet on myself and,, do it with a group and, you know, um, what's the downside, right? Um, building some relationships with people, learning a few new things, if that's all that comes of it, , awesome,, but it was a lot more than that for me.
Robbie: And, , and so I don't think this is for everybody. I think it's for people that, , look at fatherhood as, , one of, if not the highest priority part of their life and are, , looking for ways, tools, , frameworks, [00:31:00] guidance , and leadership and how to get better at it. And I think just being open-minded about what better at it means, you know?
Robbie: It's, it's, like, kinda hard to measure, but, , the relationships with your kids, the relationships with the part- with your partner, and the relationships with other fathers, , are, are all kind of takeaways for me. So , I guess to summarize, like, not for everybody, but for those who really wanna get better at this, I, I think it's for them.
Stefan: Yes, and specifically the people who not just wanna get better, uh, at, at fatherhood, but if you have the mindset of wanting to get better at something and continue to level up skills in something that you're passionate about or professionally that you're passionate about, then I think you can be convinced to- Yeah
Stefan: to i- invest in yourself and go through, , a program like this. Um, if you, if you're the kinda guy who just [00:32:00] wants to coast through life and not really change much about them and you think you're finished growing as a person, yeah,, like Robbie said, I'm not gonna try to convince you. I'm not gonna, I'm gonna save your time and my time.
Noah: Cool.
Stefan: Yeah.
Noah: Dave, you had a question or a comment?
Dave: . I just wanted to, , reflect that the two takeaways here are this opportunity to have a different type of relationship with other dads, ? Stefan saying, , you can have the pickup, drop-off., Happy hour, play date. But there's something different about, , this kind of work together. And then just to hi- to highlight what Robbie was saying, there's a, a style of, uh, a technology around adult learning called communities of practice that's very effective that when people who are passionate about something gather and discuss it on [00:33:00] a regular basis, they get better at that thing that they're passionate about.
Dave: It's, it's sort of that, that simple at a certain level, that if you're passionate about fatherhood and you come together with other dads that are passionate about fatherhood, you share tacit knowledge, you articulate things that, , are, are underneath the surface, and the group gets a little smarter than any one individual.
Dave: And, um, so I just... Th- those are my takeaways, two of my takeaways from this conversation. Uh, a different type of relationship with dads that, that was available to you all and, , and a type of learning that was available to, to both of you.
Noah: Amazing. Thank you guys so much for your time and, and, um, and for participating 'cause I, I, I just wanna say, you know, Dave and I went off on a whim and we said, "Hey, like, [00:34:00] we think this is something that will be a good, meaningful experience for dads." And we recognize that, , the two of us can only facilitate lives in person so many groups, and we were really, really excited about empowering other dads to, to, to step into leadership, to participate in person, in groups, and to give them the tools to, to lead themselves, ?
Noah: And ob- obviously always here , , as support. And, uh, and so, and, you know, this was the first cohort, and you guys answered the call and showed us both that this is something that dads do want and are hungry for and, , gave us the feedback that we need to, to keep going and to make the tweaks to improve it.
Noah: And , so thank you both, both for taking a, a leap of faith and, and diving into the 12-week program and for showing up here on the podcast today with us to, to share with us and with everybody else about your experiences.
Stefan: Thank you [00:35:00] for- closely supporting us throughout this, the whole 12-plus weeks that we gathered.
Stefan: That was immensely helpful, and can't be grateful enough for both, to both you and, and Dave for your support, and for an invite to come back here on the pod for the second time. Yeah. Thank you so much.
Noah: Yeah.
Robbie: Echoing Stephan, this was awesome. Thank you, guys.
Noah: Beautiful. All right, well, I'm gonna say goodbye to all our listeners.
Noah: If you guys are curious about this, you can go to programs.counsiloffathers.com. , You can also sign up for our Substack if you just wanna kinda get general updates. And as you probably already know, 'cause if you listen to this podcast, you probably listen to other podcasts, if you hit subscribe, it's really nice, 'cause then you find out when we, um, post new episodes.
Noah: And if you can rate the podcast, that makes it a little bit easier for other people to find it. And if you share it with somebody, then that makes it even easier for them to [00:36:00] find it. So if you enjoyed this, if you thought this was - interesting, maybe you're thinking about stepping into a leadership and organizing a group of dads for a group, you can, , share this podcast, and they can get a taste of, of what it's like.
Noah: Um, you can always reach me and Dave at connect@counsiloffathers.com. We're also on Instagram, not quite as often as we probably should be, but we're there. So hope you have a great, beautiful day, and, , feel a little bit more dropped into your heart and body and, uh, excited to show up for your family, , today and every day.
Dave: Thanks, guys. See you next time.