Fathering from Creativity - an Interview with Jeff Kasowitz
In this episode Dave and Noah talk with Jeff Kasowitz, co-founder and CEO of Jewish Studio Project. Jeff is a father of two boys and was in the founding Council of Fathers cohort in fall 2020. His core belief is that every person is creative, whatever a third-grade art teacher may have said.
Creativity is a capacity we can build with practice, the way we build strength at the gym, and it helps us navigate chaos, stay grounded, and use ways of knowing beyond the intellect.
Jeff walks through his studio method: setting an intention, paired study, open-ended art-making under a few simple rules, and witnessing. Then the three of them bring it home to parenting. What would it mean to treat the school-morning rush as an art project? To comment less and witness more? To hand a child stuck in a big feeling some paper and say, “Show me what you’re feeling”? The conversation ends with a teaching on the first word of Genesis. God created with beginner’s mind, out of chaos and void, and we are made in that image. The chaos fathers bring into council is raw material, not the end of the story.
Show notes
[00:00] Introductions. Jeff’s history with Noah and Dave, his family, and his work at Jewish Studio Project
[02:30] Creativity as a capacity you can train, like going to the gym: curiosity, receptivity, imagination, intuition
[06:00] Effort, discomfort, and the need to feel incompetent before you become competent
[08:00] How childhood playfulness gets squeezed out of us, and what creative flow feels like
[10:30] A Council of Fathers art exercise using four words: purpose, play, responsibility, and pleasure
[14:30] The Jewish Studio Project method, step 1: the “facilitator’s intention,” and Jeff’s version of it, sitting on the edge of his bed before solo-parenting time
[16:00] Step 2: chevruta, or paired learning, as a low-stakes way to try on new ideas
[17:30] Step 3: creative process time and its four rules: follow pleasure, no comment, notice everything, keep going
[18:30] The “no comment” rule at the dinner table: “Comments are actually more important to the commenter than to the commentee”
[20:00] Step 4: witnessing, meaning quiet writing followed by witness reading
[23:00] What if the morning rush to school were an art project, or a dance?
[25:00] Oscillating between modes, stepping away when it’s too much, and the before/during/after frame for hard conversations with kids
[28:00] Noah helps his son draw his way through a loop of anger. Jeff’s son now goes to the piano on his own when he has big feelings
[33:30] Bereishit: “With beginner’s mind, God created.” Creating out of tohu va-vohu, the chaos and the void
[39:00] God sees that it is good only after creating, and the mystical teaching of the shattered vessels
[40:30] Dads arrive “frantic, frazzled, ferclumped” and leave with something transformed
[43:00] Not creating alone: the village within, the village around us, and the creative source
[46:00] A blessing for creativity by Rabbi Adina Allen
[48:30] Dave on why a world dominated by rationalism needs this capacity right now
[49:30] Where to find Jeff and Jewish Studio Project, plus the Fathering from the Heart program starting November 5
Resources
Jewish Studio Project: jewishstudioproject.org (Jeff mentions a new video from inside one of their programs; add the link)
Jewish Studio Project on Instagram
Fathering from the Heart: online and in-person options, plus support for dads who want to start a local group
Ideas, requests, or bringing Council of Fathers to your school, congregation, or organization: connect@counciloffathers.com
Transcript:
EP24: Fathering from Creativity - An Interview with Jeff Kasowitz
Noah: [00:00:00] All right Hi, and welcome to the Council of Fathers podcast. I'm Noah Goldstein.
Dave: I'm Dave Bonaiuto.
Noah: And we're here to talk about the wild journey we call fatherhood. And today we have a special guest, Jeff Kasowitz. Um, Jeff and I go back probably about 15, maybe 16 years, um, and have- our lives have kind of ebbed and flowed in terms of how woven together we are.
Noah: , But Jeff was also a member of our founding cohort of our fathering, our f- our Council of Fathers program back in 2020?
Jeff: Fall 2020, yeah.
Noah: Fall of 2020. So, , so welcome to the show, Jeff. Thank you. , Jeff is also the CEO of the Jewish Studio Project, and, , has a lot to bring and share about [00:01:00] art and creativity and myth and, , and what it means to be a dad, and you've got two children.
Noah: , But I'll let you kind of, uh, tell us a little bit more about yourself. Thanks for coming on.
Jeff: Oh, it's such an honor. Thanks, Noah. Thanks, Dave. , My name is Jeff Kasowitz. I am a father of Remy, who's 12, and Tovi, who is 10. , Two active, fun, playful boys who are, uh, keeping me on my toes. Um, live in Berkeley, California, with, uh, my family, my wife Adina.
Jeff: , I love Boulder, Colorado. I've spent a lot of time there, have a lot of friends there, and I know a lot of your community is, is based there, so hello, Boulder. , I'm a social entrepreneur and a musician and a community builder and, as Noah said, co-founder and CEO of [00:02:00] Jewish Studio Project, which we can get into in a bit.
Dave: Thank you, and welcome, welcome. Yeah, Jeff and I go way back too to that first cohort.
Noah: Mm-hmm.
Dave: That's when we met-
Noah: Yeah ...
Dave: in 2020. Yeah.
Jeff: Six years, yeah.
Dave: Yeah. So good to have you. So good to have you. Thank you. Yeah. Wanna kick us off?
Noah: Yeah. Well, we're hoping that, um, you could start actually just by bringing us in and introducing you- us a little bit to the work that you do, um, recognizing that, that there's a thread here and a piece that we're gonna pull into, into how it relates to fatherhood .
Jeff: Absolutely. Um So my work is really, uh, around, , helping people connect to their inherent creativity, , as a source of wisdom, , as a resource to navigate life's challenges and life's [00:03:00] opportunities. , My deepest belief, our deepest belief at our organization is that every person is inherently creative, whether you think you are or not, whether you've been told you are or not, whether your third grade art teacher told you to stick with social studies or math.
Jeff: Um, we are all creative. We were born that way. , And when we can connect to our creativity as a resource, , ... The world is better and the world needs all of our creativity. - Especially in moments, uh, in years like we've been living that seem so, , uncertain and rapidly changing and tumultuous.
Jeff: , We need resources, we need practices to help us, , navigate chaos, to help us hold multiple perspectives, uh, to help us stay grounded as things shift around us. And our creativity, , can be a really powerful [00:04:00] capacity to help us navigate the world. And, , our work at Jewish Studio Project is really to, to work with individuals and with organizations to help them build their creative capacity.
Jeff: If you think about, , our physical capacity, I don't know if you guys go to the gym. I'm guessing you do in some form. Yeah.
Dave: Can't tell. Can't
Jeff: tell. I can tell. I can totally tell. Yeah. It's a little hard, hard through the Zoom. - When we go to the gym, we, we are building our agility, our strength, our flexibility, our endurance, and we practice that, and we can come back to it and build and build so that it's there for us when we need to pick up our kids or when we need to play a game of catch or, or whatever, move some boxes.
Jeff: , So we can stay healthy for our families, right? , And the same is true for our creativity. We can practice curiosity. We can practice receptivity. We can practice, , connecting with our imagination. We [00:05:00] can practice connecting with our intuition. , And we see that as what creativity really is all about.
Jeff: , And when we are I really think that we can't fully thrive in the world if we, , if our creative capacity is, is not built. Same with, like, our, our mental capacity and our physical capacity.
Noah: Well, Jeff, another thing I love about that metaphor is that when I go to the gym or when I go for a run, I am efforting on purpose.
Noah: It's not, like, easy. It's not, it's not... I mean, sometimes you get into a rhythm and a flow and it f- a- and it feels good, and it even doesn't feel like effort. But, but often it's like, "Oh, gosh. Okay, here we go," you know? ... And then afterwards I almost always feel great. , But , - one of the things I'm, I'm kind of taking from what you're speaking is that, , we all have these capacities, and that we can [00:06:00] exercise them, and that's gonna help us grow those capacities.
Noah: And exercising them might at times feel like it involves effort, and just because it involves effort doesn't mean I'm not good at it, right? Like, I can be good at running, but I have to effort to do it anyway, right? There's so many things... And, and I th- think that, you know, as parents, and just as people in this complicated world, it can feel like we're efforting so much so all of the time.
Jeff: Mm-hmm.
Noah: That, like, we're, we're looking for little ways to just effort a little bit less. , And, , that's where convenience comes in. That's where Instacart, you know, comes in. That's where buying prepared food comes in. , And I'm curious, like, yeah, if you can speak to that piece of, , how do you, , or how does one or how can one motivate to do [00:07:00] something that's really good for them, that's, that's helping them, , but that requires a little bit of extra effort?
Dave: Why, why not just get someone to go to the gym for you?
Noah: Right.
Dave: That works, right? Get, get someone else. . And so the effort is one piece, and then you mention this other piece of just, like, discomfort. Like, it might not be, , running might not be my thing.
Jeff: Right.
Dave: Uh, or, or what I was told was my thing, like you said, ?
Dave: , And so it might be I'm, I have to feel incompetent in order to become competent.
Jeff: Mm.
Dave: Right? Or, or maybe competency isn't the goal. You know, maybe, maybe there's a better way to describe growing creativity.
Jeff: 100% to all of that. I think, um, well first of all, there's so many barriers to creativity, like I was trying to describe before. Like, , our kids are so good at this, right? It's so natural for [00:08:00] them. Yeah. They can pick up some Legos, they can pick up some crayons, and just like go to town. , And that kind of childhood playfulness that we l- that our kids exhibit, which we can also learn from them, which is an amazing way to kind of partner with them in learning.
Jeff: , That gets kind of like wrung out of us as we become adults, and, , we enter a society where we have, , kind of raised up a level of artists, if you will, who we anoint as the, those who are talented and good at this kind of thing, and are the culture makers of our time. Which is like we need that, and that's really good.
Jeff: And also, we all have this within us, but the sometimes just getting in the door is like a, a really, uh, strong impediment. , But back to the efforting. Once we're through the door, we can both provide some scaffolding to make it easier.
Dave: [00:09:00] Mm-hmm.
Jeff: Um, and, um- Help build, build, build it as a practice so that it is less effortful going forward.
Jeff: , The, the goal ultimately is to help folks get into some form of creative flow. I don't-- I assume you've, you guys have been in that place where you're writing a song or you're building something with wood or you're writing, um, a poem or something, right? Like, you know when you're in the flow 'cause it doesn't feel effortful.
Jeff: It feels like you are connected to something bigger and beyond and sacred that's coming down, that is this connection to this inherent creativity, which we can talk more about. Um, and when we're there, it's like very pleasurable, right? , But oftentimes it's activating because what-- the stuff that you're working with, Dave, as you said, the stuff you're working with can be uncomfortable.
Jeff: It can, um, getting under the-- [00:10:00] Creativity can help you get under the subconscious, right? It can help you, um, get out of your head, get out of the intellect, which we have developed as a people so strongly over the past however many years, but to the detriment of not having developed these other ways of knowing we have in the world, um, our intuition, our memory, our feelings, our, um, our imagination, right?
Jeff: So how do we, how do we help people get into those, those ways of knowing so that we can, we can put all of our ways of knowing on the table to help us sort through what's hard, to help us discover new things about ourselves and our relationships, to help us connect to something bigger and beyond in this world and feel gratitude?
Noah: Yeah. Um, I'm hearing, I'm remembering, , there was a, a session that a, a Council of Fathers session , that Dave and I did with a, a recent [00:11:00] cohort, , and I gave them four words and paper and then colors. There was like, , pastels and crayons and pencils and pic- color, , watercolors, and the four words were, , I think purpose, play, responsibility, and I can't remember what the other one was.
Noah: But I put on some music, and , the energy in the room kinda just , and everyone was just in this creative flow. And then afterwards, everyone had some time to sort of look at what they created- And then, and then we went around and people had an opportunity to share what they learned- Interesting
Noah: right, about themselves and their relationship to these four ideas, these four, , like what's my relationship to purpose? How does it interface with my, with play? What's my relation- what does [00:12:00] responsibility feel like? Why did I choose this color or this shape or... And, um-
Dave: Was it pleasure? Was that the fourth?
Noah: It was. It was pleasure. Yeah. Yeah. It was pleasure. Pleasure and play, and then purpose and responsibility. Yeah, as like, yeah, that's what it was.
Jeff: So- I love that.
Noah: Yeah.
Jeff: I love that. Um, what you're describing is, like, not too dissimilar to the methodology that we use in our work, and I'm happy to describe that- Yeah,
Noah: yeah.
Jeff: Tell us more ... a little bit. Um, g- it's, it's really cool to, to know that you were doing that because it's, um, it's an invitation we don't get very often to, to activate some other part of us, right? Mm-hmm. And, and to do it in a group, to do it in a group of men- Mm-hmm ... that, that doesn't happen very often.
Jeff: That's really cool. Um-
Dave: Before, before we transition- Yeah ... I just wanna, see if I got my hands around this idea that creativity is, mm, a capacity, I think you [00:13:00] used that word, or maybe it's a set of capacities, uh, that- Is often underutilized, m- maybe for some more than others. I don't know. We could unpack that.
Dave: But, um, and it has potential to bring vitality and maybe, maybe it encourages, uh, growth on the path to wholeness. Like, it-
Noah: Mm ...
Dave: um, surfaces parts unused, maybe atrof- atrophied parts of us.
Jeff: Mm-hmm.
Dave: And, I don't know, makes us, um, more authentic versions of ourself. How's, how's that? How's that
Jeff: sound? Uh, that was beau- that was beautiful.
Jeff: Yeah, I think that, that is true, and it's very, you know, it's so aligned with the work that, that you two do, [00:14:00] the really holy work of doing the same thing in a different kind of, different kind of way. - I see it as a, you know, we, we sometimes when we hear the word creativity, we're thinking about painting or somebody singing or, you know, collaging or something.
Jeff: , But be- underneath those practices are this set of skills and mindsets that we kind of roll up to say capacity-
Dave: Mm ...
Jeff: um, that we can bring out of the studio, out of the art room, and into our everyday lives. Just like, um, you know, yoga teachers say, , "Can you t-take this, take these practices off the mat," right?
Jeff: "And, and into your lives." We say these, can we take it off the page and- Mm ... and bring this into y- your life? And, , I wanted to share a little bit about the, , the actual methodology because it's, there, some of what you were describing, Noah, are like steps of, of the work that we do. , And even the way we started this [00:15:00] call, the, the listeners don't see it, but we started with an intention.
Jeff: , And our, that intention setting is a huge step of, of our process. , And when we train people in our methodology, , one of the things we train them on is called a facilitator's intention. , So before you start to facilitate a program, make an intent, an intention about how you wanna show up, , what you want, um, out of, of this experience.
Jeff: And we, we state it in the present tense as if it's a blessing that's already happened. So like, I learn more about myself, I connect to such and such a person, , I discover something new. , And what I love about that is also how we bring that back, how we can bring that back into parenting. I remember when I, when my kids were younger and I was about to go in for a session of like Jeff and the kids for two hours straight.
Jeff: I would sit on the edge of my bed. I'd put my hands on my legs, and I would make an intention [00:16:00] about what I wanted that time to be like. Because if I don't do that, it's gonna be, I don't know what the time's gonna be like. But I, it's at least when I make that facilitator's intention or parenting intention, then I can come back to that e- when I get a little flustered or something while I'm there.
Jeff: - So our, our work begins with, , activating the intellect, getting questions up, getting-- starting to get a little bit of , what do I wanna learn more about? And, and the way we do that is through a Jewish technology called Beit Midrash, or studying texts with a partner. Um, and the text could be honestly about anything.
Jeff: Often, our texts are related, are like some, um, traditional Jewish texts and some modern poetry, or even like some song lyrics, and we're putting things together in new ways, which is also kind of what creativity is like, putting s-seemingly different things together and seeing what patterns or what, what [00:17:00] emerges.
Jeff: , That's a really cool thing. The, the-- it's called chevruta, this paired learning, comes from the Hebrew word chaver or friend. , And what's cool is you get to try on, in a very low stakes way, you get to try on like a perspective or an argument or a new idea, and like it doesn't matter if it like, if you don't end up taking that out or whatever.
Jeff: It's just , it's you and one other person, and you're bouncing ideas, you're sharpening one another. , Anyway, that gets our, kind of our intellect going. And then we put that aside, and we make an intention for our creative process time, which is, is like what I was describing before. We make an intention.
Jeff: , Then we go into some, some sort of creative process. It's often using visual art materials. It could be paints or watercolors or Cray-Pahs. I often bring my guitar out during this time and just like noodle around until a melody comes. And we do that for half [00:18:00] an hour, sixty minutes, whatever time we have.
Jeff: And we have a set of rules to guide-- this gets back to kind of the scaffolding, th-to guide our creative process time. , One rule is follow pleasure. So how can-- which is another way of saying like follow the energy, follow -- something playful, , th-where you're feeling into things kind of manifesting.
Jeff: And often we say, "Just start by making a mark on the page. One mark. Okay, now make another mark. Choose one or two colors that appeal to you." So we can really lower the barriers here, , and step people through it. Um, a second rule, which I use all the time in parenting, or I try to and I fail at, is called the no comment rule.
Jeff: The no comment rule means you can't, you're not allowed to comment on your work or anybody else's work. , It's like a, a revolutionary kinda concept in American society, I feel like. Um, and, um, it's really cool 'cause it's not to [00:19:00] say, , you're not gonna be judgy about what you're doing or you're not gonna, , be attracted to what somebody else might be doing or, or kind of jealous of their ability and what they can do, but it's saying, - Comments are actually more important to the commenter than to the commentee, right?
Jeff: It's like, what is that saying about you, and how can you put that into your, back into your own process? , And I love trying to use no comment as a parent at the dinner table, making dinner, trying to get out the door- Yeah ... trying, bedtime. It's kind of, it's almost impossible, but- Yeah ... it's a really good aspiration 'cause we don't need to comment on everything.
Jeff: Our kids don't need to be commented at on, about- Yeah ... everything, right? . No- nobody wants that. , No comment rule, and we can talk more about that if we want. The other two rules are notice everything, so pay attention to kind of what's going on, like, do I have to go to the bathroom? Oh, it's, it's hot in the room.
Jeff: Um, I'm feeling really agitated right now. , And the third is to keep going- [00:20:00]
Dave: Mm ...
Jeff: for the full time. Like, even if you get bored, even if you're feeling like you can't make it through. , Sometimes, like there's five minutes left, and it's really where, like these pieces get transformed into things that are more meaningful.
Jeff: , And the proc... The, the, the point here is, is to be in your process, to try to get into that state of receptivity, that state of creative flow because that's when, that's when the discoveries come. That's when the n- the new ways of thinking. That's when the softening and the re- comes, and the rigidity kind of falls away.
Jeff: , And then our final step, just to wrap this up, and then I'll shut up. , The, our final step is called, is called witnessing, and I, I, I believe you all use witnessing in your cohorts as well. So we do, we do like 10 minutes of writing, so we write about what that process was and what we, what the piece might be all about in, in quiet.
Jeff: And then we do witness reading, which is a time for anybody who wants to read [00:21:00] literally from their witness. Not to comment, not to make a story about anything, but literally read what they've written, , and for everybody else to get to kind of witness them, and it builds this amazing sense of trust and love and community.
Jeff: This, even if it's with people who like you're meeting for the first time 'cause you're, you're witnessing. You're getting a chance to witness their truth. Mm.
Dave: So beautiful. And I, and I'm, and I'm noticing, Jeff, that all of these rules are, um, encouraging us to break the habit of analytical, intellectual, um- You know, reflexive operating.
Dave: , Like , , I always say I'm like a broken record, but, but all growth is counter-instinctual. So you're sort of, you're taking that instinct to comment, the instinct to just go, go about your [00:22:00] business without setting an intention, the instinct, , to, um, critique your own work, and you're s- you're...
Dave: By making rules around those, what's left is everything else, right? What's left is, , other parts of the brain, other parts of the psyche, uh, other parts of the field, whatever you wanna, whatever you wanna call it. But something is allowed to emerge when we put limits on the problem-solving analytical mind.
Noah: And one thing that strikes me, , there's so much intentionality and, and just how that, um- How that creates the conditions, the space , for the thing you're going for to happen, ? And even, even, you know, on the one hand you have this no comment, and the energy and the quality of, of what it means [00:23:00] to comment, and then you have this witness process, which you could say is not unlike commenting, right?
Noah: There's a way in which what you're doing when you're witnessing, you're, you know, there's something similar. But just that word and the intention and the quality that's being br- of, of, of attention that's being brought, , and just going back to the parenting, I'm thinking about the morning, and we're making breakfast, and we're making lunches, and we're trying to get out the door.
Noah: What's it l- what does it mean to comment, and what does it mean to behold and to witness my children in their process and in, in that flow? And, , and to witness my own internal experience of, , the cereal getting spilled on the floor or or- Yeah ... the milk on the counter or whatever the thing is.
Noah: Um, yeah. And, like, what would it be like [00:24:00] to approach the morning, getting out the door to school, as, as an art project?
Jeff: Hmm.
Noah: ? With that level- Beautiful ... of intentionality. As a dance. Yeah. ? What would the energy, what would happen? What would emerge? ,
Jeff: Creativity mindset to, to morning- Yeah ... ritual? Yeah, and it's not to say that, like, commenting, you shouldn't comment sometimes. Sure. Right? Like, if our, if our kid's gonna, , burn themselves on the stove, , probably gonna say, , "Stop."
Dave: Good time to comment.
Jeff: Good time
Dave: to comment.
Jeff: Right. But maybe it's, maybe it's like c- c- can I reduce the comments by 20% today or s- you know, something more practical like that.
Dave: Yeah. I mean, I appreciate just playing with it, right? Yeah. Like, the sort of experimentation of it. What do... I mean, the, , the question of, like, how much is enough and how much is too much is, , this constant, , project in, in my mind.
Dave: ? Like, [00:25:00] do I let them? Do I guide them? ? So I really just appreciate , ,- like you said, , , trying to land on flow in a way, that flow state of parenting.
Jeff: It's, it's a journey. It's hard.
Dave: Yeah. Not, not too tight, not too loose, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Jeff: Right. And we can... One of our, , creative modes that we talk about is oscillating. , So kind of like going in and out of these different ways of, of approaching conversations or approaching the day or s- or state of mind, um, going in and out of like imagination and intellect.
Jeff: And, , you know, sometimes the creative work can get too intense and you need to step away. Like it could be bring, it can bring up too much for the moment, , and you need to put it down for a second, say, "That's too much for now. I'm gonna back away and I'll, I'll come back to this when, when I'm ready."
Jeff: , And sometimes you have to do that as a parent. Sometimes you need to, like the situat- I'm not gonna be my best right now in this argument or this [00:26:00] chaos. I need to... I'm gonna, I'm gonna go take a walk, and I'll come back to it when I'm in a different state.
Dave: Absolutely. Yeah, these three sort of stages that Noah and I talk about often, , I'm hearing, , the, the before, you know, setting an intention.
Dave: How do I want this experience with my kiddo to go? I'm about to go up to her, her room. I'm about to walk in and process something or, or have a conversation about something. Before I do, what is my intention? How, how can I envision it going well? Like how, how can I... How do I want it to play out, right? And I love this part about like maybe even stating that in the present moment.
Dave: You know, I'm, I'm connected with myself and I'm connected with my kiddo, and I trust that, , connection is more important than being right, ? And then there's the during, which you're, , we have these guidelines around, , we're, we're doing our best to, [00:27:00] uh, stay, stay with ourselves and stay connected with our kiddo, and we might need to take a break.
Dave: , We might need to walk away and just say, "Honey, I'll be right back. , I just, Daddy needs a, needs a moment. , I'll be right back and we'll, we'll keep working on this together," right? And then there's this after that you're talking about too where we're reflecting back and we're, um, titrating.
Dave: , We're digesting. We're, , making sense of, , bringing the, bringing the prefrontal cortex back into the process to connect, to integrate those parts of the brain together and digest. Make meaning. Yeah. Yeah.
Jeff: Beautiful. Beautiful. Beautiful.
Noah: I have a, so a curiosity ', so in my experience doing art, ex- it, you , it's an, it's an expressive practice and it's, it's an expressive [00:28:00] medium and, and there is a quality of, um, kind of coming into contact with something inside, and then, and then, and then that sort of coming up and out into the outside world , and then this witness process of, like, seeing, "Oh, that was inside of me," or, "That was how I was feeling about..."
Noah: And there's, there's a cathars- a cathartic kind of element to that. There's a, a releasing element to that. , And , I'm thinking about this one time when, when, uh, one of my kids was having a really difficult time with w- really big feelings, and he was just getting stuck in the feeling , and it was just kind of like a loop, and we couldn't...
Noah: , and I was able to bring him over to a table with, with some paper, and I was just like, "Show me what you're feeling."
Dave: Mm.
Noah: And, and he, you know, drew these pictures and then- Mm ... and then as he was drawing them, the pictures were changing, and, , the anger was so big, it was like he was [00:29:00] inside the anger.
Noah: And then at, at a certain point, , then, , the anger was shrinking and there were other things coming in , , and that became something that we could turn to, right? , And so I'm curious, , I'm curious kind of how this aspect of creativity shows up, , shows up in, in, in this practice for you, , for the participants, ... what you see as, as the value kind , of that aspect , of the bigger process.
Jeff: I'm so glad you did that. That's such a cool thing that you did. It seemed like really useful for your child.
Noah: Yeah. It was useful for me too. Yeah, right. 'Cause I was like, I was in a moment of like, I just, I don't know what to do. I, I- he's looping, I'm stuck, we're stuck, l- and, and just there's this spark of like, let's try this.
Jeff: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think that's what we're trying to do with our, with our work is to get, to get the feelings out on the page, um, to work with it, , to [00:30:00] To transform in stuckness into generativity, into something new that can help us. , It's not about the product of what we make. It's, it's... That's, that's important, and people often take their pieces and put them up in their offices, and then call us two years later and say, "My piece is still in my office.
Jeff: I look at it every day. It's still, it's still teaching me new things."
Dave: Mm.
Jeff: Um, often the people who would, like, rate us the lowest, mm, during right after the experience, um, call us with, with that a couple years later. Um-
Dave: Mm. I love that.
Jeff: I mean, the other thing is, like, it doesn't work all the time. It doesn't work every time in the same way.
Jeff: Just like, , a prayer practice or a meditation practice isn't as potent each time. But that's why we- that's why it's a practice, right? , And when we can-- When we know the motions, we can more easily get into those places. And then we start to say, [00:31:00] "I have an issue right now I can't figure out with my m- brain.
Jeff: Like, I... But I, but I have this thing that I can do that might help me figure it out." Mm. Um, and so having it there as, as a thing that one can do. You know, I have, I have markers here. I've got also crayons. I've got also water color brushes all over the place. I have my guitar right next to my desk, so if I, if I'm ever feeling like , I need to open up a new-- I need to oscillate to a new mode, I can.
Dave: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Jeff: Your story made me think about, um, my older son who, , when he has big feelings has begun to go to the piano without being prompted.
Dave: Mm.
Jeff: He's been playing, he's been playing piano e- for six years. , He's, [00:32:00] like, blows me away with what he can do on there now. We just got him a new piano, and, uh, I think he has moved into a phase of emotional regulation where he, um, can t- when he's feeling big feelings, he goes to the piano.
Jeff: It's so cool. It's like, oh my God, I'm so glad you have this .
Noah: Yeah. It's almost as good as, like, scrolling on a phone when you have big feelings. It could,
Dave: could, could be that. Uh. Yeah, it could be the opposite.
Noah: Yeah.
Dave: Yeah.
Noah: That's beautiful.
Dave: So Jeff, , you know what our groups look like, , , , when we hold council.
Dave: , Essentially , if we're in person, we have six to eight dads in the room sitting around together, , and really, , , , having a place to share, having a place to be heard, , be witnessed, , a place to to make the inner world explicit , and witnessed.
Dave: , And we do lots of [00:33:00] activities like what Noah , is sharing about, , using, , crafts , and, , we, we do dyads, , like you're talking about, , working things out, , in low stakes s- circumstances. And, , yeah, curious what comes to mind if we wanted to help dads-
Jeff: Mm-hmm ...
Dave: access this capacity of, call it creativity, or it sounds more like, , access the creative maybe is a, is a better or is, , another way to say it.
Dave: Yeah. Any thoughts come to mind in our, in our set and setting, , how we might use that medicine?
Jeff: Absolutely. I might wanna answer this with, um, a little bit of Jewish wisdom, if that's okay. Yeah. Yeah. , And I, I hope this is an answer. If not, I can answer it more directly, uh, after, , or at least [00:34:00] try. It's so cool that we're talking today because, , we're entering the Jewish Sabbath this evening. , And on this particular Shabbat, we start reading the Torah over.
Jeff: So every year, Jews around the world read the entire scroll and start and go week by week, portion by portion, till they get to the end. And then we start it over again, which is just like an amazing teaching in its own right, right? That we, we have these incredible stories that we tell a- and learn from and ask questions of and, um, write commentaries about and interpret in different ways each year.
Jeff: And, , the cycle of starting over again is just something we can always do. Every minute of the day can be, uh, the opportunity to create anew. , So we will read tomorrow morning the [00:35:00] first The first part of Genesis, which begins Bereishit Bara Elohim, which is, um, commonly translated as, "In the beginning, God created."
Jeff: , And not to get too much into, like, parsing the actual, what the actual text is, , but to say that that first word, Bereishit, which often means in the beginning, , because of the way it's constructed, can actually mean Be- and then -reishit. So Be- can be translated as with, and -reishit can be translated as the first.
Jeff: So if you think about that in a different way, it's with the first God created. And, um, we take that to mean with beginner's mind, God created the world.
Noah: Hmm.
Jeff: Um, and what is beginner's mind, right? Our, our kids, again, our kids, , this is what they do every day. They, , bring their curiosity and playfulness, and they're not attached to any certain thing about, [00:36:00] about what they're doing.
Jeff: , And they can be flexible, and, , just, like, in awe of the world, right? , And then what happens in Genesis is, , it's an opportunity to witness God's creative process. And I know I'm, I'm using God language here, and that's uncomfortable for some people, and it, it could mean source or the divine or the transformative energy or bigger and beyond whatever, or it can mean nothing, and that's fine.
Jeff: , But just explaining what, like, what this means to me in my tradition. , We go on to learn that, , God created from Tohu va-Vohu, the, the chaos and the void and the darkness and the depths. And often we're, we're told or there's tellings of the creation story that God created from nothing. But if we read the text closely, God created from chaos.
Jeff: God created from void. These raw materials that each one of us feels in our lives every day and creates something amazing [00:37:00] from those raw materials. And then a couple verses later, we learn that we're made in the image of this divine force. Hmm. So if we take all of that, , together, , we say we are created creative, and the way we do that is that we are, um, invited to transform the chaos and the void and the darkness and the depths of our lives into something good.
Jeff: Ketov, into something good.
Dave: Hmm.
Jeff: Like there's the f- for our organization, Jewish Studio Project, there's like the practice, but then there's also, there's the foundational stories in Torah that where all of this kind of came out of, which I, I think can be as impactful as the practice itself. -
Dave: Mm.
Jeff: And for the councils , and the very, , courageous men who you're bringing together to, , dig into their [00:38:00] vulnerability, to get to know and befriend the chaos and the void in their lives in new ways- Mm
Jeff: um, I think it's really cool for them to know that that's, , that those are the raw materials. That's not the end.
Noah: Mm.
Jeff: Those are what we build from, and we- Mm ... can create, create new possibilities from.
Dave: Mic drop. I'm gonna... W- let's take that clip of Jeff telling that story, and let's watch it before every council.
Dave: I mean, during every council.
Noah: That was, that was remarkable.
Dave: I love that. I love that.
Noah: Jeff- ... thank you so much.
Jeff: Um-
Noah: Well,
Jeff: thanks for the opportunity.
Noah: Yeah. And I'm just really struck by, I mean, the whole arc and this, this... I mean, I think- Dads show up because they feel and experience this sense of chaos. This, this [00:39:00] way that, you know, their own creative impulse to create new life, right?
Noah: Kind of wreaks havoc in a way. And, and but to hear like, oh, we are all imprinted as, as beings capable of, designed for turning chaos into something beautiful and something good, that is remarkable. And, and when you started retelling the story, the, the thing that, that came to me was, you know, God creates first and then V'raki Tov.
Noah: And then afterwards, God looks back and sees, "Oh, it's good." There is not an assumption that it's going to be good. There's not a like, "Oh, I'm definitely gonna get it right." There's not a, "Let me create this thing. Oh, that's good." And what we don't hear, and maybe what [00:40:00] you can read in between the lines, was that God was, you know, tried other things at other points in time that were not good and chose not to keep them or not to keep...
Noah: Right? There's all sorts of, I'm sure, little h- hidden mystical stories about the things. Um, and we also, you know, there's also the mystical tradition where in, in God's act of creation, so much love and goodness and light was poured into the world that it actually caused the containers of creation to shatter and left these shards of light kind of hidden within everything.
Noah: , And so that even, even God's acts of creation, , can involve processes that, that lead to unexpected results. -
Dave: Yeah, I, I, I, it's, it's like you both are describing the alchemical process, right? , And I think we see that. Dads come in frantic, frazzled, , [00:41:00] ferclumped. I needed a third F.
Noah: Yeah.
Dave: Uh, from the day.
Noah: You did.
Dave: And from... Is it?
Noah: Yeah.
Dave: Check me out.
Noah: Yeah.
Dave: . Or from, you know, when, when I, you, when you say the word chaos, I picture my kitchen in the morning. You know? That's, that's the that is chaos. And they come in with that material, and then we do, we close out our circle with one word , and there's something that has transmuted, transformed, and maybe, uh, created is the word.
Noah: Mm.
Dave: Yeah.
Noah: And there's something really empowering about that. There's something l- about the agency involved in that process, right? What you, when, when you are saying we're all, um, born as creative beings and that we all have this creative [00:42:00] capacity, you're saying we all have agency. We all have a capacity to, to make with our lives and to make with, with, with the raw materials of our lives, to make with our relationships, um, something.
Noah: That, that even in those circumstances where we feel maybe overwhelmed or out of control or , like we can't, like we don't know what to do, that sitting in that not knowing, sitting in that place of, , confusion, that , if we can connect to the creative impulse, then that creative impulse will show us a way to dance with, , with the world that is enlivening, that is, , bringing something new and different.
Noah: , And maybe [00:43:00] sometimes, , the dance ends with the watercolor water spilling all over the page and ruining the picture. But, m- but, and may, , and maybe that's okay. Maybe the picture can just be a mess. And that's beautiful in its own right.
Jeff: And we don't, like, we don't have to do it alone. I think what's beautiful about the council is like you're You can do this together and with support and with witness.
Jeff: And also, like when, when we can get into the creative flow, there's a sense in that moment that you're also not doing it alone, that there's like a... We talked about that word chevruta, that pair, that like there's something, there's something else more maybe divine or, or beyond that is also there for us.
Dave: Mm.
Noah: The
Dave: creative source. Even if
Jeff: it's...
Dave: Yeah, creative source. I'm so glad you [00:44:00] said that. Yeah. I was gonna say, even if it's an energy-
Jeff: Yeah ...
Dave: like y- you know, you have enough experiences with your own imagination or intuition or creativity, and something emerges like hope. Mm. You know? Like, there is something beyond my problem-solving mind that I have access to that is, like, like you said, it's, it's beyond me.
Dave: It's, um, I can draw from it.
Noah: Mm.
Dave: Yeah, a well or a source.
Noah: Mm. And what I'm, I'm hearing in, in both your boat, there's this dance between, like, me as a creator, creative person, w- this other energy that helps me create, and then-
Dave: Yeah ...
Noah: the people who are with me in this process. I'm not doing it alone.
Dave: Yeah.
Noah: I'm [00:45:00] doing it in c- connection with other people, and I'm doing it in connection with this other energy.
Noah: Um, and, and, and yeah. I mean, and, and I'm just really, it's a really beautiful... There's beauty, beautiful quality. And, and I think that whe- when you think about, you know, we say, "Oh, it takes a village," right? It takes a village. That's sort of the phrase that everyone kinda talks about when we're trying to talk about raising our kids.
Noah: And, , and thinking about the village within and the village be- uh, amongst, and then that there's these other energies that we get to work with that are part of the village, too.
Jeff: Hmm.
Dave: Yeah. , And , yeah, so if I grab my guitar, there's a way in which I can access something that my intellectual mind can't.
Jeff: Mm-hmm.
Dave: But if Jeff grabs his guitar and you grab your mandolin, now there's something , , [00:46:00] we have access to that we didn't, that I didn't when I was playing on my own.
Noah: Mm.
Dave: Yeah.
Jeff: We gotta get the band together. Let's
Dave: do it.
Jeff: That's what I'm taking away. All right.
Dave: Can I ask a- Can- Oh, go ahead, Jeff.
Jeff: Go ahead. No, I, I was feeling maybe we're moving towards closing, and I, I, I wanted to maybe share a blessing that , we wrote, if that would be okay. Yes. So, um- More
Dave: than okay, yeah. It would
Jeff: be lovely. Okay. So the, the, the co-founder of Jewish Studio Project is my wife, um, Rabbi Adina Allen. She's a rabbi, and she wrote this amazing blessing for creativity that, um, we say at all of our programs.
Jeff: So it goes like this. «Baruch ata Adonai, makor ha-chaim, shebara otanu b'tsalmo, u'mazmin otanu l'chadesh bechol yom tamid ma'aseh bereshit. Baruch ata Adonai, yotzer otanu y'tziratim.» And that translates to, "Blessed are you, [00:47:00] creative source, who creates us in your image and invites us to renew daily the work of creation.
Jeff: Blessed are you who created us creative."
Noah: Hmm. Mm.
Noah: Beautiful. Thank you, Jeff.
Jeff: Thank you, guys.
Noah: As we, , we- they say the Sabbath is zikkaron l'ma'aseh bereishit. It's a, it's a remembering of the act of creation, , and so it's interesting to think about how when we go into this- Yeah ... day of rest, this day of relief, this day of not trying to be creative, part of that is, is remembering the creativity.
Noah: And there's another kind of... You talked about that ebb and flow and that in and out of, like, sometimes we gotta be hands-on and creative, and sometimes you gotta step back. Um, and so my assumption now is that everyone that's listened to this up till now [00:48:00] is just superly duperly saturated with, um, a lot , of beautiful, interesting, , ideas, impressions, invitations into their own creativity.
Noah: And so I'm gonna- we can invite them to, to, to rest into that- Mm-hmm ... and to, to digest it and to marinate. And, um,
Dave: we- I have one more thing I wanna say. Okay. And this might be last word freak, or it might be 'cause it needs to be
Noah: said.
Dave: Might, might just need to be said. Uh, the larger systemic context, the world is dominated by a rational, materialistic, intellectual, um-
Noah: Hmm
Dave: Mode. And [00:49:00] the further down that road we go, the more we need this function.
Jeff: Mm.
Dave: So just to bring this piece of both, like, the collective, the world needs more of this capacity that you're speaking of, uh, to, to heal. And, uh, so it's, it's helpful But it's also necessary. And, um, yeah. We need, we need- we're imbalanced right now in the world, and we need more of this.
Jeff: 100%, and part two of this conversation. Yeah. There's so much, there's so much to say about that.
Noah: Oh, I wanna hear. I really wanna hear. But, um, but yeah, we'll close it, and maybe we can do a part two. , Jeff, thank you so, so much. How can people, if they're like, "Oof, I [00:50:00] want more of this. I want more of Jeff and the Jew- and I wanna learn more about what the Jewish Studio Project does," how can people learn more?
Noah: Where can they find you guys?
Jeff: Hmm.
Noah: Yeah.
Jeff: Uh, thanks for that. Uh, jewishstudioproject.org is our website. You can find us on Instagram and other places. , Yeah, come check us out. There's a brand-new video of our work that we developed this past winter, which kinda gets you inside a program, which is really cool.
Jeff: So you can check that out there. -
Noah: And
Jeff: we can- But it's been ... Yeah.
Noah: We'll put those links in the show notes- Yeah ... including that video.
Jeff: It's been such an honor, you two. I know this- we've been, we've been kind of dreaming of this conversation for a really long time. Yeah.
Noah: We
Jeff: did. And it seems like it's a perfect, it's a- a perfect moment to do it, and-
Noah: Totally
Jeff: um, I'm just so inspired by the work you're doing, and m- men need this kind of support and leadership and, and community so badly right now, and you're doing just such beautiful and [00:51:00] holy work, and I'm lucky to be a part of it.
Noah: Likewise. Thank you for being a part of it, and thank you for all of your support and encouragement and, and participation.
Noah: And, uh, yeah. Mm, may you have a beautiful, beautiful rest of your day and into the weekend. And for all of our listeners out there, , if you enjoyed this, please share it with somebody else who might enjoy it. , And if you haven't already rated the podcast, that helps people find it, especially when you give us five stars.
Noah: And if you have any ideas or requests for the podcast, you can always email us at connect@counciloffathers.com. It's also worth mentioning that we have a program that is beginning November 5th called Fathering From the Heart. It's our sort of flagship program. There are online options, there are in-person [00:52:00] options, and there are, - in-person options, even if you don't live in Boulder, we have a whole way that you can kind of organize a group of dads, and we'll f- support you in, in facilitating, uh, this program wherever you are locally.
Noah: And if you are part of a school or a religious institution or any sort of organization that's a community organization, and you're curious how Council of Fathers could support you as an organization, in your organization to, to bring this work to the dads that are already a part of your community, please reach out, and we would love to talk with you about that.
Noah: So, um, thank you again, Geoff, and, , blessings out there to all the listeners, and, , have a lovely and beautiful rest of your week.[00:53:00]