Principles for Fatherhood (Part 3)
The Next three principles are:
You go where you eyes go
Yelling at the screen doesn’t change the movie
You parents are always around
Listen to learn more or read the transcript below:
(please note that transcript was created using AI and may include mistakes)
Principles for Fatherhood (Part 3)
[00:00:00] Noah: Hi, and welcome to the council of fathers podcast. We're bringing a heartful perspective to this wild journey. We call fatherhood I'm Noah Goldstein
[00:00:10] Dave: and I'm Dave Bonaiuto.
[00:00:12] Noah: Thanks for joining us. If you do enjoy this, please subscribe and share it with another dad out there who may benefit from it today. We are continuing our four-part series.
This is part three of principles for Fatherhood.
[00:00:28] Dave: That's right. We have 12 principles. We've covered six so far in the last two episodes in case you missed it, the first six are number one, start with the man in the mirror. Number two, it's not about what you think it's about. Number three control is the opposite of connection.
You liked that. one? Don't you, Number four, it's better to be connected than to be. Right. Five. You will always have triggers. Try not to let your triggers have you.
[00:01:05] Noah: like that one too.
[00:01:07] Dave: I thought you might. And number six was you're only as good as your resources
[00:01:14] Noah: to be resourced. In the last episode, we did recap the first three, but we're not going to recap all six because that could get lengthy.
And
[00:01:24] Dave: it's a lot of capping, too many, too many caps. really.
[00:01:28] Noah: Yeah. And by the time we're done with that, we won't have time to dive into the new ones, but we do encourage you to go back and listen
[00:01:35] Dave: Totally Again, and again, and again,
[00:01:39] Noah: I know again,
[00:01:40] Dave: but today we're going to start with number seven.
[00:01:43] Noah: Number seven is a lucky number. This is what they
[00:01:46] Dave: Oh my gosh. How lucky are we?
[00:01:48] Noah: So
[00:01:49] Dave: what's number seven,
[00:01:50] Noah: number seven is you go where your eyes go? Unless you change that one to Nope. Okay.
[00:01:58] Dave: No, but I'm, I might've stolen that there might be some copyright. issues there We'll have to. unpack.
[00:02:06] Noah: I think it's called in B. You were inspired by,
[00:02:10] Dave: a book
[00:02:12] Noah: by, somebody
[00:02:13] Dave: anyway Okay.
Let's talk about it.
[00:02:15] Noah: Um,
well, this one's interesting because it has to do with what you notice and what you see.
And, um, the way I think of it is if you're. Noticing all of the messes that your kids are making and all of the things that they are doing incorrectly. And that's what you comment on. And that's what you know, is the vibe of what's happening. Then that's where, that's where that's just, what's going to keep happening.
Whereas if you. Notice when your kids are doing things right. And comment on that. And if you notice, um, when things are moving smoothly and then all of a sudden that's what gets magnified and amplified in the family system. And, , this one. You kind of brought this in, in a more explicit way into my life with regards to the kids and family,
but one of my love languages is words of affirmation.
[00:03:27] Dave: You're doing a great job. Now. I just wanted to mention that
[00:03:29] Noah: you. Thank you, Dave. I needed that. Um, and, uh, and I find and have found that things are a lot better when I'm expressing. Explicitly outwardly with words, my gratitude and appreciation for all of the big and little things that, Rachel and my wife , is doing in, in the home,, for the kids, for me, for our family.
And, uh, yeah. And then.
It feels really nice to, to tell the kids like, oh wow. You know, look at that. You really appreciate that you did that.
[00:04:08] Dave: totally.
[00:04:09] Noah: um, which isn't to say that we need to completely ignore when things are not going well and not ever comment on them or notice them. But I think you, you have a lot to add here, so be quiet now.
[00:04:25] Dave: oh, I was Just going to echo, echo, echo. echo what you were saying, which is that it seems to create like our culture in the house, you know, and yeah, it can't be from a sort of Pollyanna or, you know, even it can't be insincere, it has to be genuine. So it's not about faking it. It's about what you pay attention to really, which is turns out to be.
a skill It's about looking for what's right. And looking for what's going well, and being grateful. That's sounds so cliche in this day and age and there's truth to it. I mean, part of what we talk about in the council is, is John Gottman's research around what he calls positive sentiment override, which is this way in which.
You know, couples who tend to pay attention to the, to the good in each other, intentionally, those, those who do it more sort of get away with more, you know, like if if you have a negative sentiment in the household and you say, thank you, you know, your spouse. might say. Why did you say thank you like that. You know, I mean, you can get into this culture of negativity where everyone's walking on eggshells, Or you can get into a culture where sort of everyone's looking for the best in each other. And well-intended The other thing I think about as fathers is following our values. Right? Getting clear on what our values are, because values act as a direction. And and are we go in the direction that our eyes go, we go in the direction of our values.
I, You know, I always think we're, we're always sort of green as fathers. We're always responding to what arises and if you're just responding to what arises, you know, you don't Get to where you want to go. So it is wise, it seems as fathers to sort of take some time and reflect on what are what's most important to me as a, as a dad, what's most important to me, what matters most to me as a person so that I can orient my fathering.
I can orient my day to where my eyes go, where I, where I want to go. you know,
[00:07:22] Noah: Not get distracted, not get pulled away and moved in all sorts of wonky directions.
[00:07:30] Dave: So easy to do so easy to get lost in the shuffle of parenting. If we don't have, you know, it's sorta like, you know, the plane from New York to London He is off course, 90% of the time.
or something I'm misquoting something, but you know, those points get there because there, there is, a compass a GPS. say, uh, I don't know what they call. I'm not an aviator.
apparently, but, um, There's always this. so, so that gives us some credibility. The plane is always reorienting to the direction, you know, It's reorienting to the destination. And I think that's what we try to do as fathers too, is be intentional about where we want to head so that we can reorient orient
[00:08:30] Noah: And that reminds me actually, one.
We wrote this thing called the seven crucial practices to being a better father that's available for download on the website,
[00:08:41] Dave: lucky number seven,
[00:08:42] Noah: lucky number seven again. And one of the things in there is, um, to have a practice that reconnects you with your values on the daily, right? Like, so that you keep your eyes in the right direction, so to speak.
Um, and. Yeah, I just really, I think about that a lot. Cause you could have this sort of theory. You could go through the practice even of identifying what your values are, but unless you're constantly kind of checking, looking at them, you know, checking in with them and it sort of just the some abstract concept.
Um, I'm wondering if you have any thoughts around, you know, cause I also wrote down this.
Piece around like, you know, you don't want to bypass reality. Only see the positive, see the world through rose colored glasses. Right. So how do we ensure that we're being authentic and noticing the positive in noticing the positive without kind of discarding and disregarding our, you know, w some of the negative stuff.
[00:09:56] Dave: Yeah. I mean, I sorta wonder if that Deserves another principle, you know, something like
um, , don't let the shadow fester in the basement or, or, or something to that, something to that effect, you know, that we don't want to ignore the positive and everything we're grateful
We also don't want to ignore. The negative. I mean, that's not what we're advocating for. I think we're advocating for being intentional. And it's so I think the default in parenting is to get lost. I mean, it's. I don't know about you, but when I enter the house, it's a bit like entering a maze, it's easy to get lost. in All that's happening, all the roles, responsibilities, tasks, Legos, emotions.
[00:11:01] Noah: why I've been feeling so anxious all the time. Oh,
[00:11:07] Dave: makes sense.
Don't it. But, you know, I'm glad you mentioned anxiety, right? So that's something
yeah, well, you don't want to bury that and I'm fine. Everything's great. I'm heading in the direction. My, eyes are Looking, in and let's forget. it. No, you, want to head in the direction that your eyes are pointed while feeling the anxiety that arises when you move towards what you want to, to.
So there's, there's a difference between sort of bypassing in my mind, bypassing and, um, being willing to feel what arises as you move towards. what you want.
[00:11:54] Noah: that's great. I really liked the way you encapsulated that. Um,
[00:11:59] Dave: you're doing great. Noah. I just want to, I just want to tell you, I Really? I really enjoy.
[00:12:04] Noah: I enjoy
[00:12:05] Dave: cadence, your your voice. You're very um, have a soothing. voice
[00:12:11] Noah: I feel so loved right now with these words of affirmation.
[00:12:14] Dave: Well, I try, man.
[00:12:16] Noah: I'd love some afterwards. Maybe some constructive. Critical feedback to how I can improve tone what I'm doing. Not right. also
[00:12:25] Dave: that. That should be another principle too. Something about feedback,
[00:12:29] Noah: how to give it, how to receive it.
Um,
what, and I th I think what we're talking about, In terms of seeing things as they are really jives well with the next principle principle number eight, which is yelling at the screen, doesn't change the movie.
[00:12:50] Dave: Have you ever done that?
[00:12:52] Noah: I often, when I'm watching an ad, something that I, um, you know, Rachel gets annoyed, um,
Um, I do talk to I'm like, no, don't go in
[00:13:05] Dave: don't go in there. That's Right. Why would you do that? It's like it's, uh, the house is, you know, clearly haunted There's someone with an ax running around. out there. Why would you go in the house? But the movie never changes
[00:13:21] Noah: still happens
[00:13:22] Dave: because we're, yelling at it. And, and the funny thing is if you turn around, you could see the projector in the wall.
right. that's where the image is coming from. It's not coming from the screen, right?
[00:13:38] Noah: It's you're watching TV,
[00:13:41] Dave: Whoa, whoa.
[00:13:44] Noah: but yeah.
[00:13:46] Dave: So you can yell at the TV. is what you're
[00:13:49] Noah: I mean, it's not going to change it though.
[00:13:50] Dave: It's still not going
[00:13:51] Noah: still not going to change
[00:13:52] Dave: Okay.
[00:13:53] Noah: Um, and, and in general, resisting reality. doesn't change reality. And I think, yes, it's important to feel the feelings that come up in, in reaction to, um, what's happening. But. But we don't have to necessarily express those in real time.
Or I, I, when I was reflecting on this, when a memory came up from when Hazel was, she must've been two years old, she, I mean, she's seven now. She was so cute. And, um, she's still cute. Yes. Oh, very much so. But you know, the two year old cute is different from the seven year old. Cute and. um, she was, she was drawing on the floor of the bathroom with these like water Crans and it was a ma like, she was really quiet.
I was probably cooking dinner and I go and I peek and I'm like, oh my God.
And I felt this like surge of, and, and I, but I was one of those moments of grace where I, I didn't yell or scream. I like slowed myself down. I walked over there and I, you know, I we can't be drawing on the floor and let's wash this, clean this up together.
And, you know, and, um, I think the message to not draw on the floor got across very clearly. She never did it again, even without the yelling,
[00:15:26] Dave: especially without the yelling,
[00:15:28] Noah: especially without the yelling and, uh,
[00:15:31] Dave: I don't know.
[00:15:32] Noah: and, uh, Yeah, but it just felt like one of those instance where like I felt angry that I was going to have to clean up the floor and, you know, the impulse then is to then yell at the floor for being dirty, you know, or at my daughter for making the floor dirty.
Right. But
[00:15:49] Dave: yeah. yeah, I can still relate. My, my daughter Anya is also seven as you know, and yeah, I we're in this Pattern we've been in this dynamic. I perceive her as being disrespectful You know, particularly she'll say something. like, you know, I'm not picking that up. You pick it up.
you know,
[00:16:22] Noah: I understand why you perceive
[00:16:24] Dave: you, you can, uh, you can see where I'm coming from, but it really is a. a perception, you know?
what is, what is underneath that? I mean, what what's going on for her that she says that, I mean, kids in my experience, she's never intending to be district disrespectful. There's something else happening.
Right? We've talked a little bit about this, but the dynamic is, she says. something. Disrespectful that I perceive as disrespectful. I scold her, you know, as a reflexive response and yeah, that never, never, you know, she never responds to that by being, oh, daddy, I'm sorry. I hurt your feelings. That's Not the response to being scolded. The response to being scolded is generally to puff up Or to avoid scolding and do something different. It's like a game of whack-a-mole, you know, I scold you here and you go do something over there. It becomes really unproductive. And I've really been trying in the last several months to really see, instead of seeing her as disrespectful to see her as hurting or as Needing something having an unmet need or, you know, wanting to connect with me that takes some reframing of the situation in in the moment, because I'm pretty sure of what I'm seeing on the screen. I'm pretty convinced I've got it. Right,
[00:18:10] Noah: right.
[00:18:12] Dave: But interacting with the screen, as I see it doesn't seem to help and Trying to shift how I see it and trying to perceive something more w with better intentions on her end seems to really, really shift. the dynamic. She feels connected to me. She feels heard, she feels safe, right? She Feels loved. And she generally will hug me and apologize. And even she started like explaining why she was saying what she said. "I didn't mean that daddy. I just was really frustrated in the moment. I wish I hadn't said that." I mean, Words that just don't come out of her mouth. when I. see. try to reprimand her.
for what I'm seeing.
[00:19:22] Noah: There's two things I want to speak to that showed up for me when you shared that
[00:19:31] Dave: please do
[00:19:31] Noah: One was that I actually fell my whole nervous system. Just calm down. Relaxed, like, I'm sure on some level, like we're recording this and you know, there's some level of like, okay, what are we saying? And how is this going to land for people?
I just think there's this quality of, um, comfort, safety ease. As you were speaking, that as you were describing for you, how you've been relating to Anya that like I felt, and I felt it impact me, uh, Which is nice. It feels it's like one of those yummy gooey feelings. So maybe our listeners are feeling that too.
Hopefully. Um, and then the other thing was just this, the difference between.
This active orientation and this sort of more receptive orientation, right? Like yelling at the screen, sort of the irony. The screen is supposed to be giving you information. And here you are trying to tell the screen what it's supposed to be doing.
Right. And, and as opposed to just really fully receiving what's happening fully receiving, even if it's uncomfortable. So that you can then respond in a, in a, in a way that's more appropriate.
[00:20:59] Dave: I love that, that receptivity, and. what is it? Say it again,
[00:21:04] Noah: Like a more receptive orientation and more active orientation.
[00:21:09] Dave: Yeah. And, and, you know, you had said before, maybe we'll talk about Receiving and giving feedback at another time. But, sort of bringing it in now right. that I love that the screen is giving us feedback and. Yeah. I guess it's, it's hard to receive when you're actively screaming,
[00:21:38] Noah: But also you're getting even more feedback into that. When you, when you respond from the place that you've been practicing and working on, responding from the movie does shift. Like it's, I it's sort of like when, when you don't yell at the screen, When you watch the screen receive the deeper messages of the, of this show so to speak, right?
Then you can actually engage with the show really with more understanding.
[00:22:16] Dave: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. The first shift with a, with an adult and a child usually has to be, the adult and. You know, Changing the perception, changing the projection onto the screen. giving the benefit of the doubt, reframing what I'm receiving from the screen.
Yeah.
[00:22:43] Noah: Yeah. And it's amazing how like one person in a family system can make a big difference for the whole city system
[00:22:53] Dave: for better And
[00:22:54] Noah: And this, this is true.
[00:22:56] Dave: Yeah. It really is remarkable. What's our next,
[00:22:59] Noah: our next principle is this is a, this is a heavy one potentially, or like a,
[00:23:06] Dave: a doozy.
[00:23:07] Noah: Your parents are always lurking about.
[00:23:11] Dave: Yeah. I just want to say, I know my mom and dad are listening and I'm sorry guys. And I love you both very much.
And it's really, you know, it's not personal. There's, there's a huge impact that we have on our kids and that our parents had on us and still have on us. Right. That's not about necessarily our our parents, but it is about the dynamic of a parent and child. And one of the. Striking things that I've experienced as a dad is just how I can slip into being a child in a moment's notice.
You know, and often it's sort of seeing my wife you know, from in the mother role and I'm, I become a kid in relationship. with her. I I think I'm in trouble or. you know, I I've done something wrong. Or, you know, and I, I hear myself, I sound like a little kid. you know, and It's it's the way in which we learn to interact with the world through this dynamic of of child and and parent. And then other times, I'm talking to my kids and I swear. My dad's in the room. because it sounds a lot like him, you know, and I just, uh, um, automatically recreating what I experienced as a kid, which isn't, it's not bad. I, you know, for me, a lot of folks certainly had childhoods that they don't want to recreate. It's not that I have a childhood that I don't, want to recreate. it's that I want to be intentional about my parenting and I don't want it to come from a reflexive automatic knee-jerk place.
I want to sort of tease through what, what was it that my parents showed me that I want to repeat? And what is it that, that I don't it's different times. I'm a different person and you know, what do I intentionally want to play out As a father.
[00:25:49] Noah: Yeah. You know, I think we might actually have to change this one from your parents are always lurking about to your parents are always with you because the lurking about kind of only acknowledges or only focuses on going back to like looking through what, what our lens is, what we see only folk only sees the.
Less nice stuff that we're trying to, to improve upon,
[00:26:11] Dave: There's not, there's not sort of a good way to lurk
[00:26:16] Noah: you know?
[00:26:16] Dave: can't positively lurk.
[00:26:19] Noah: Um, whereas like, if they're always with you, then that means that like the, the beautiful life lessons that they've imbued you with, the values that they've imbued you with, that you've chosen. To, to, to bring through, um, are there with you. And, and there's a sense of, of also love, right? Because that's what our parents, if we are lucky, you know, in the household that we had, that they, they loved us and were doing their best, uh, given, like you said, the tools that they have, the times that they lived in, um, So I just want, I want it to name that and, you know, cause I know my parents, at least my dad is listening.
Um, and you know, just building off of what you said, I think this one to me is all about like doing the work, which, which really means some type of therapy digging deep.
You know, unpacking our pasts and how our past impacts our present, um, to make sure we're consciously aware of, you know, the emotional and behavioral patterns that we inherited.
I mean, I think the more awareness we have, the more we can, the more freedom we have to choose and to build upon those things. And, um, you know, and I just want to, to share that one of my favorite paradigms around the work that I've done is to come from this place. Caring curiosity to those behaviors
right. If I notice myself yelling at my kid, like what? Well, there's, there's some thing that's positively, there's an intention.
I'm trying to achieve something. Right. And, and that's coming from a good place and it's not coming out in the way that is maybe most effective or most kind
[00:28:26] Dave: or the way you want it, to come
[00:28:28] Noah: or the way I want it to come out. Right. But, but recognizing, acknowledging that like what's underneath this in me is a good thing is, is, is something that.
You know, is probably hurt itself. And then, you know, doing the work to sort of tend to that. And, um, yeah, I guess what comes from that, it's a lot of self-forgiveness. Um, and self-understanding, and then you can recruit that same energy in another direction towards another end.
[00:29:10] Dave: what do you mean by that?
[00:29:11] Noah: I mean that, that energy, that, that impulse, that w that is yelling right now. If once, once I do that work, that same impulse can act in a different way.
[00:29:24] Dave: Hmm. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:29:28] Noah: I know this is pretty abstract.
[00:29:30] Dave: We'll just to, just to Unpack it a little bit. Like take something like anger, Right. We tend to think about anger as a blob of, you know, this thing we called anger, but it's, but it's made up of pieces, or parts, and you know, there's, there's feelings and there's sensations and there's thoughts and then there's actions.
And you're, you're saying, you know, maybe when you yell at your kids, There's there might be some value in the feelings, the thoughts, the sensations that you don't want to lose, right? You might want to change the actual action that behavior. But I think so often we throw out all of it or repress it, suppress it, avoid it.
Somehow we try to, you know, not feel anger as a way to protect others around us. Which is, You know, ingenious in a way, and it's a bit, uh, reductionist in another. And I think how do we, and we see this, I, I think we see this a lot with men who have learned anger is bad. Don't feel anger, don't express anger, don't show anger.
And then we'll what happens when the, the world's going to pot because of climate change? Where's that damn anger we need that anger. We just, as you're saying, we want the anger to be for a just cause and to be serving others.
[00:31:24] Noah: Yeah. And I think also, I mean, sometimes this stuff can be scary right by this stuff.
I mean, quote unquote.
Quote unquote, you know, therapy, right? Like it doesn't have a great rap people. Aren't like, yes, actually most people I know who do see a therapist actually are like, yes, I'm going to see my therapist today or this week or tomorrow. Cause because good stuff happens there. Um, but in general, in the culture, it's kind of like there, there can be some tentativeness around it and um, and I think.
Yeah, hopefully they're there. What I've gotten out of the work that I've done has been a tremendous amount of growth in my heart. Like more space in my heart, forgiveness, more room for love, love for my parents. Love who are still looking about, um, love, you know, for my kids, for my partner. Right. And, and, um, And so I just, I wanted to make sure that that was included.
[00:32:41] Dave: Yeah. I really appreciate what you're saying about, you know, therapy, getting, getting a bad rap you know, and also. just about The hard work of, know.
I think what you're saying is there a therapy takes courage to some level, right? To decide that you want to go talk to someone about your private life takes is a risk and it and it takes a lot of courage.
to Open up about things that you've. never opened up about before.
[00:33:25] Noah: It's funny to hear you reflect that because what I was trying to say was that therapy is fucking awesome and it's so cathartic. And so healing that, that it's helped me like work through. Some of the stuff that I inherited that I didn't want it, you know, bring along.
And it's helped me improve my relationship with my parents and with myself and with my kids and partner. And, um, you know, if you want to call me courageous, I'll take it. But I was really just trying to just acknowledge that, uh, that there are a lot of socio-cultural. Kind of resistances for people, especially men to go to therapy.
And some of those are even economic. Right. But, um, that I, I love therapy and I, I, I think people can benefit from it a lot
[00:34:32] Dave: totally.
And. You to come back to the principal. You know, your, your parents are always lurking about, I think there's sort of a. uh, Stereotype of therapy that, you know, you go into the therapist's office, you sit down, you say, um,, I feel anxious all the time and the therapist it's because of your parents. you know, And usually it's because of your mom and that's sort of the stereotypical, you know,, blaming the parents for how we turned out.
And I want to be careful that when we say our parents are lurking about weed, we don't mean that, you know, what we mean is that parents leave an impression on kids and when we're adults and we want to go where our eyes are looking, you know, when we want to be intentional about our. lives. It's really valuable to unpack what is mine and what was my parents.
And, you know, I think what you're saying is, that as a therapist can be super helpful for unpacking that all and, and discerning what is automatic that I learned and is unconscious and what is conscious and intentional.
[00:36:06] Noah: Good clarification. Um, and hopefully helpful for people out there listening.
So this is episode three of four for the, I it's the fourth episode of the podcast, but in this series and we just covered., that:
You go, where your eyes go
Yelling at the screen. It doesn't change the movie.
And your parents are always looking about,
I think we got into some juicy stuff there and hopefully people are feeling and thinking and wondering. Um, we're always here. If you guys, uh, out there want to email us, have an idea.
I have a question about what came up. Maybe we could even talk through some questions that come up on the show. You can email us at connect@counciloffathers.com. If you enjoyed this or are enjoying this, please feel free to share it with someone, rate the show on the podcast app you use that helps people find us and.
Thank you so much for taking the time to listen, to think about who you are as a parent.
[00:37:23] Dave: Yeah. Good stuff. It's good to be in good company.
[00:37:28] Noah: Amen.