Raising Empowered, Not Entitled, Kids
In this conversation, Noah and Dave explore one of modern fatherhood's trickiest balancing acts: raising children who are empowered to navigate the world confidently, without tipping into entitlement or losing their humility.
They discuss the two dangerous extremes—kids with so much power they're scared (lacking boundaries) versus kids so controlled they lose their sense of agency—and what it means to "guide" children through that middle path. The conversation moves through building strong relationships as the foundation for open communication, teaching critical thinking skills without vilifying different perspectives, and helping children develop healthy skepticism without sliding into cynicism.
Dave and Noah share personal stories about vulnerable conversations, the challenges of protecting versus preparing kids for difficult influences, and why cultivating curiosity might be one of the most important skills we can model. The episode concludes with a powerful example of what empowerment actually looks like when a child chooses vulnerability over performance.
Topics Covered:
The Core Tension (00:05:00 - 00:12:00)
Finding the sweet spot between empowerment and entitlement
Two extremes to avoid: kids running the show vs. overly obedient/disempowered children
The spectrum from "too much responsibility" (scary lack of boundaries) to "no autonomy" (outsourcing will)
Parenting styles: overly directive vs. overly following, with "guiding" as the middle path
Modeling assertiveness vs. aggression or passivity
Building Critical Thinking Skills (00:12:00 - 00:19:00)
Preparing children for nefarious influences in the world
Providing foundation of principles vs. controlling exposure
The importance of open communication channels
Creating safe space for mistakes and "failing forward"
Avoiding vilification of different beliefs/influences
Relationship as Foundation (00:19:00 - 00:27:00)
Keeping the "bank account full" through positive connection
Fun, play, and genuine quality time
Modeling vulnerability and transparency
Proactive conversations about social dynamics
Sharing your own struggles and repair processes
John Gottman's "positive sentiment override"
Essential Skills for Empowerment (00:27:00 - 00:35:00)
Working with difficult emotions
Cultivating curiosity as an engaged posture
Skepticism vs. cynicism - maintaining openness while questioning
The trap of "anti-gullibility" (thinking you're immune to manipulation)
Acknowledging our human desire to be seduced/led
The challenge of "reading the label from inside the jar"
Practical Wisdom (00:35:00 - 00:41:00)
Balancing self-esteem with humility
Seeking external reference points without giving away your truth
Dave's example of Rafi being vulnerable about needing support
Self-compassion as strength, not avoidance of accountability
Transcript:
Noah: [00:00:00] Hi, and welcome to the Council of Fathers Podcast where we explore the wild experience of fatherhood. I'm Noah.
Dave: I'm Dave,
Noah: and today we're gathered together to discuss how to raise empowered children who are not. What's the word I'm looking for?
Dave: Entitled.
Noah: Entitled,
Dave: entitled,
Noah: empowered, but Not entitled. Um, before we dive into the topic, we wanna make sure that everyone else out there knows that we are running a program called Fathering From the Heart, starting January 12th.
And it's a 12 week journey. It's our first online offering. So dads across the country and world can. [00:01:00] Have the experience of unpacking the initiation into fatherhood, what it means to us, and helping us step into authentic. Fatherhood into ourselves, healing some of the wounds, breaking intergenerational patterns, uh, showing up for our families in ways that we believe in, in ways that we feel confident about.
So you walk into your house and there is a sense of love radiating from you, a sense of connection, a sense of presence, and that you really have these deep and meaningful relationships that are also playful and fun with your kids and family. And if you go to programs dot council of fathers.com, you can learn all about fathering from the heart and you can also schedule a free discovery call if you do that.
If you have questions about the program you will get [00:02:00] $50 off the enrollment. And yeah, we're really excited about this. It's gonna be amazing. Dave, anything you wanna add?
Dave: Hmm.
I wish I had had this when I first had a kiddo.
Noah: Tell me about it.
Dave: Well, about 13 years ago. Yeah, no, I wish that I. You know when, when I found out my wife was pregnant with our first kiddo, I didn't know who to talk to or like I, I, I talked to my dad. I, I said, dad, what can you tell me about being a father?
And he said, well, son, only about 5% of what you do matters, and you'll never know which 5%. So you have to try your best every day. Which just, that's sweet. It, it's, it is very concise. It is [00:03:00] very true. And, you know yeah, it would've been nice to have like something to dig into a curriculum or, or something to read or, or, you know, other people to talk to around identity.
As a father, like what does it mean to become a father? Um, how's my life gonna change? What values do I want us to really lean into? How do I wanna show up? Right? These things that, that even you and I didn't talk about until we got really intentional about helping other people talk about it, you know?
Noah: When it sounds like Dave, what you were seeking and what I was also seeking was a sense of competence and confidence in yourself as a dad. Um, which I think is exactly what we're intending for this program to equip dads with maybe some [00:04:00] skills around how to best communicate with your partner and your kids as as they grow.
Dave: Yeah. And, and a place to talk about it. You know, just like a space to think out loud.
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
Dave: You know, it's, it can be so isolating to, to have a baby. And, you know, I think our, both of our experiences where, where it was a bit more isolating for us as dads than, than it was for our, for our partners.
Um. So that alone, just being able to say, you know this is hard. And to have somebody else say amen, you know,
Noah: yeah.
Dave: Is really meaningful. So trying to keep that aspect with this course, you know, the aspect of community and connection and, and, uh, brotherhood.
Noah: Right. And people can either join the online community that'll [00:05:00] be running around the program, or they can kind of organize a group of guys locally with them, meet in person and do the program together in that way.
So there's a couple of different ways that, that you can do it.
Dave: Yeah. Part of a movement too. Part of a Council of Fathers intentional community.
Noah: Yeah. So, um, what
Dave: are we talking about today, Noah?
Noah: Today we're talking about. How we, how we raise empowered kids that aren't entitled. I think I Sorry, you
Dave: said that.
Noah: Yeah. I mean, I think that this has been a topic on my mind since, since they were, since I've had kids, but lately it's been, it's been up. We've talked about it a little bit. It, I mean, even I've been thinking about, what it means to be empowered even as adults in terms of our relationships when we fall [00:06:00] into codependence and enmeshment patterns with our partners.
Right. And we're gonna probably steer clear from that topic, which is its own ball of yarn for today and focus on, on the kiddos. 'cause the way I've always thought of it is that. I think about the 2-year-old who's sort of starting to experiment with their self-agency and mine, and I want this. And, you know, and, and there's often this like reflex to just like, shut it down.
Like, no, I'm the parent, you're the child. Like, you don't get what you, you know, like, just kind of make sure they, they put them in their place, right? Yeah. And there's an important, there is an important hierarchical power dynamic that has to exist between parents and children. But we don't wanna take away, at least, I don't wanna take away my children's sense of, of, of empowerment.
I just want them to know where the boundaries around that are at [00:07:00] their. Given place in life. And so the, so I sort of think of it as like a spectrum from like on the one end of it, you've got the kid is totally running the show and you know, entitled and thinks that whatever they want, they get and thinks that they're the boss, so to speak.
Right. And on the other end, you have a kid who's, maybe obedient who follows all the rules, but has also lost that sense of like, wait a second, I'm allowed to have desires. I'm allowed to push and reach for what I want. And, and then, you know, those being the, the far extremes on both ends, like what is, what is that middle ground of like, okay, I understand.
I, I feel empowered to reach for, and ask for and, uh, [00:08:00] work towards the things that I want, you know, and at the same time, I understand my place in terms of being a child and not an adult. And yeah.
Dave: Yeah. I, I love those, the, the two sort of, we, we, we could call 'em like type one, type two errors. Maybe like on the one extreme, when kids feel they have too much, um, well, you could call it too much responsibility, right?
Mm-hmm. Like, um, kids who don't have boundaries, um. Are are pretty scared, right? It's scary to be a kid without appropriate boundaries. I remember a teacher of mine saying, you know, if you want to think about that, if you wanna imagine what that's like, you know, imagine standing on a, a, a circle on the floor [00:09:00] that's just a little bit, uh, wider in circumference than your feet.
You know, it's a small, a circular area on the floor that you're standing, and then imagine that gets raised up, you know, a hundred feet in the air and, and to not have boundaries as a kid
Speaker 3: mm-hmm.
Dave: Is, is terrifying. You could, you could fall, you know, in any direction. And then on the other extreme, the other error we could say, is not having any autonomy, not having any authorship or choice or discretion and deferring decision making. Deferring will to, you know, outsourcing one's own will and volition. Equally dangerous in my mind.
Noah: Yeah.
Dave: So the sweet spot that you're talking about is sort of like [00:10:00] not too tight, not too loose.
Noah: Mm-hmm. And Right. And I think it, those, those are boundaries that they change as the just children grow. And
Dave: And, and, and we could say, sorry, we could say that the, the flip side, the flip. Experience of that continuum for the parent is sort of overly directive on the one hand and overly. Say, following on the other, right?
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
Dave: These two styles the if we're overly directive, we, we can err on having children that are, that are that lack, you know, uh, will. And if we're overly following, we can have kids who experience too much choice. And in the middle is, is something like guiding. That guiding is a balance between following on the one hand and directing on the other.
And it, [00:11:00] and it takes from both of those, it involves both of those. Sometimes we direct, sometimes we follow. There's sort of a dance that is involved in guiding our kids. What do you, what do you make of that?
Noah: I mean, I think that's, that's spot on. There's a way in which we're. Also th modeling to them also, what, what it means to be in our own sense of authority and our own sense of knowing what is right, what needs to happen or what we want to happen.
With respect to others, with respect to, um. Other needs that might exist. Right. And so
Dave: I think yeah, you're sort of modeling maybe assertiveness, right? Like on the one end is aggression.
Noah: Mm-hmm.
Dave: And on the other end is passivity. [00:12:00] Right? And sort of the, what we're trying to model in the middle as being compassionately assertive or something, or.
Yeah.
Noah: When this feels particularly important given I think the world that we're navigating and, and the world that our children are growing up in there, you know, there's a lot of, uh, nefarious. Influences out there, right? And we want our children to be able to be exposed to, you know, ideas, to behaviors, to philosophies that might have ethical issues that might be harmful, that might, and to be able to.
Assess [00:13:00] and analyze and think critically around whether or not that's something that they want to join in with or follow or become a part of. Right? And, and, and so part of that is, is doing our best to give our children a foundation of principles. Of, of, of, of how to live a good life in the world, how to be a good person, right?
And part of that is then giving them the tools to assess and adjust and other, other ideas out there.
Dave: Totally. Yeah. I love that. If we're, uh, let's say we're overly directive, we can sort of limit any influence from the outside and we can attempt to anyway, you know try to control what they consume, right?
If we're overly following, we [00:14:00] can just allow them to take in whatever they want without discretion. But, but in the middle, there's something like providing the skills, the self-regulation, the critical thinking as you said, uh, the ability to discern.
Noah: Mm-hmm. And, and yeah, and I think going back to that guardrail metaphor, what developmental stages do we allow them to be exposed or expose themselves to different kind of external inputs. Right. You know, and of course media is, is a big one. I think that probably is front and center for people, but. Um, yeah. I think even in within a social, you know, a school setting and there's these kids and those kids and you know, you want your, you know, your kids are gonna sort of decide who they fall into and, and how do we say like, you can fall in with whoever you want [00:15:00] because I, you, the choices that you're gonna make right are gonna be.
Choices that are hopefully in alignment with, and you'll, and you know, also giving room for a, a kid to make mistakes and learn through mistakes and realize that, oh, when I hang out with these kids and I do these things, it actually doesn't feel good. And when I hang out with these kids and do these things, it does feel good and like, or it does, you know, and feeling and, and we don't necessarily want, quote unquote, feeling good to be the, the, the, the soul of the
Dave: barometer.
Noah: Yeah. Right. Because certain things might feel good in certain ways, but be harmful. Right? Yeah. We have to
Dave: maybe, maybe feel right or uh, in aligned, right?
Noah: Yeah. Yeah.
Dave: I was just chuckling 'cause I remember the first time my daughter came home from, [00:16:00] from preschool calling me a a, this is a warning for the listener.
I'm about to say some very, um, off key, off color language. She came home saying, you stupid poopy, funky asshole. Wow. And, uh. She said it with vigor and it was adorable. But I remember thinking like, where'd she learn that? You know, she's four years old, she's surrounded by four years old, four year olds, and I thought I didn't have to worry about that, right?
Noah: Mm-hmm.
Dave: But four year olds, it turns out, have older siblings.
Noah: Mm-hmm.
Dave: Some
Noah: of
Dave: them. What's that?
Noah: Some of them have older
Dave: siblings, some of them have older siblings who learn from their older siblings and come to school and share it. So even if we want to protect our kids, and, and of course we do, there's a difference between, um, [00:17:00] protecting, you know, and preparing.
Right? And that's part of what you're saying is how do we prepare, uh, our children for. Inevitable adversity, but also, uh, misinformation and, and, uh, ugliness out there, right?
Noah: When I think
Dave: so. Yeah, go ahead.
Noah: Well, I think I also, what we're trying to avoid is, is, uh, a vilifying
Dave: mm-hmm.
Noah: Like some of those, those other influences, right?
Like, mm. You know, maybe it's okay for certain groups of people to have certain beliefs around X, Y, and Z. You know, maybe even if we disagree with them, I don't have to be scared around how that may impact. I mean, I can be, I can be scared, I can be worried, but like, if there's an open channel of communication and if there's, you know, a, a strong relationship.
Between me and my kiddos, then I, I can know [00:18:00] that when they get exposed to I different ideas or different, you know, then they might come back and say like, Hey dad, they call me Abba. So they probably wouldn't say Dad 'cause that, but hey Abba, like, these kids were talking about this thing and like, it didn't make sense.
Or, I saw this thing at my friend's house on YouTube and, or like, whatever the. The, they, there's an open channel of communication and, and trust that, that they can bring these things to us and then and then, and then we get to be in dialogue around it. Right?
Dave: Yeah, totally. It's like a, yeah. One of the greatest leverage points is our relationship and, how safe our kids feel exploring and making mistakes with us and failing forward, right? Like if you wanna grow, if you wanna develop as an adult or as a kid, you have to be able to fail [00:19:00] forward. You have to be able to learn from mistakes. Or even that, you know, you don't have to call it a mistake, but sort of learn who you are by exploring the edges of who you are and learn what you believe in by exploring the edges of what you believe in, sort of you know, lopping off the clay to form a, a, a beautiful art piece, you know, a statue or figurine.
And so. That relationship where, you know, if our kids are scared of us, you know, scared, they're gonna get in trouble, scared, they're gonna get disciplined, scared, they're gonna lose their phones, scared, they're gonna be grounded. Right? You know, they might also be scared to share what's really on their mind and ask for the support they need to sort through it and to.
To really learn what they, [00:20:00] how they wanna relate to new material.
Noah: Mm-hmm. And I think, you know, yeah, I think when I think about how, how we build those relationships, right, is specifically being proactive, right? Having some of these important conversations upfront. And when, whenever there is a, a hiccup, if you will. Right? Like being able to,
not doing our best not to bring in again, shame, guilt. Like I think exactly what you were saying, like failing forward or learning forward, right? Like, ah, we made this mistake, you know, how do we, how do. Fix what we can fix. How do we repair, what we can repair? And, and what is, how are we going to, when we're confronted with the same situ situation next time make a different choice.
Right? And so, you know, and some of that's getting really like. Practical and [00:21:00] tactical of like, wait, you, you lost your sweatshirt again. And so, okay. Like, all right, let's, what do you need to do next time when you're taking your sweatshirt off to sort of help you remember, wait, I've taken this off, and where am I putting it?
And, you know, what's a good habit around that? Or, I mean, that's a really sort of mundane example. But I, I think helping our kids work through. What happened and what they can do differently next time. Again, without shame, without guilt, um,
Dave: yeah. Yeah. At, at, you know, a young age, you know, it can be teasing another kiddo.
Right. Um,
how do we talk about, how, how do we help our kids talk about that? Like, you know. It didn't, it didn't feel right to be, you know, all of us were sort of picking on this one, [00:22:00] uh, other kiddo and, you know, didn't feel right. Like what an amazing what an amazing experience to unpack with a child. But then as it gets older, you know, it's can get more serious.
Right? Like, my friend wanted to steal something from the store or. You know, that's good. Uh, everybody was drinking and I wasn't sure what to do. Right. So that it's, it's almost like, you know in order to really learn that kind of self-regulation, that kind of emotional intelligence, that kind of social intelligence, that kind of self-responsibility, you know.
It really needs to be learned in relationship.
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
Dave: And so, yeah. I wonder for you, you know, what, what comes to mind when you, when you think about [00:23:00] maximizing your relationship, you know, so that your kiddos trust you and want to talk to you, what comes to mind?
Noah: I mean, the first thing I, I think of is, is kind of keeping the.
The bank account full or keeping the, the, the cup full in terms of just. Genuine positive connection and like that has nothing to do with this. Right. Like playing
Dave: Yeah.
Noah: Board game or reading books to, to them at night. I just actually started reading a book to my 11-year-old. We haven't read a book in a while.
Like playing basket, like whatever the things are that are just fun and connective and building that sense of like, you know, cuddling and, and you know, just taking care of each other. And, um, I think that doing fun things. I think that that's like kind of. Part one is right. We have this sense of like, we like each other, we like spending too the hind together, we, we do fun things together.
Yeah. There's the, that builds a sort of affinity and connection and a sense of trust.
Dave: Yeah. John, John [00:24:00] Gottman calls it positive sentiment override. Right? He, he has a term for it and, and it's essentially when, when the culture between you and your kids is. Positive. You know, in nature there's more of a willingness to yeah.
To come to the bank. Right. If it's, if it's full, then there's more of a desire to come, withdraw some, some money.
Noah: Yeah. Um, and then another thing I think is like open, honest transparency. And that. Can come through around like the mistakes that we make when we make mistakes, like modeling, acknowledging it, apologizing for it, checking in, um, around that.
And and, and I think also going back, going to that, like being proactive, having this proactive conversations around like, oh, you know, what's going on socially with your, with your friends and, and sort of op, you [00:25:00] know, creating an open environment for inquiry and conversation and for think, creating lots of opportunities for, for conversations to, to kind of happen.
Dave: Yeah. Yeah. And, and sort of, I hear modeling like vulnerable conversations, modeling, taking risks, that it's okay to say something scary, that it's okay to say something, um, that could be judged, right? Like, um, if I approach my wife with, with that kind of, you know, spirit in front of them, um, you know, this is hard for me to say.
Or like, Hey, could we talk about what just happened? You know, having a vulnerable conversation in front of the kids, or having vulnerable conversations with the kids, right? Like, Hey, [00:26:00] could we unpack what just happened? Is, is really different experientially than sweeping stuff under the, the rug.
Noah: Totally.
Dave: You know, and, and hoping that it goes away.
Noah: Um, and I think also sharing about our, our own, you know, like, oh, I had to have this tough conversation with my friend.
Dave: Yeah, I like that.
Noah: Like I, you know, we, we had this disagreement or like, I forgot to call him on his birthday or like, whatever the thing is, I was out of alignment with my integrity in our friendship and, and I had to, or he did something, or she did something that really like rubbed me the wrong way.
And I, I really just. Wanted to pretend it didn't happen and, and ignore it and just go back to being friends. But I knew that wasn't gonna be good for our friendship, and so I took a risk and I let them know that I was really bothered by, you know, this thing that they did. And then [00:27:00] we ended up having a really great conversation and it was cool.
Dave: Yeah.
Noah: So sharing those things at the dinner table or yeah.
Dave: And then we, I think we've talked a lot about. On this podcast about working with difficult emotions when they arise and sort of, you know, the ability and willingness to allow anxi anxiety, fear, sadness, to, to well up, to stay present and, and allow, allow it to pass or dissipate.
That's a skill, right?
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
Dave: And, it's a skill that's involved in being empowered, right? If you're gonna, um, you, you know, exercise autonomy or ex exercise, um, you know, discretion take risks. One of the key skills is to be able to feel what [00:28:00] comes up when you do and to continue.
Noah: And I think another one is, is curiosity.
Dave: Hmm.
Noah: Like being curious about our own experience, being curious about others' experiences, being curious about like just the world and, and why people are doing what they're doing and the choices they're making and the choices we make. And there's something like the, the curious posture. Is, it is an engaged posture and, and in a way it, it, it's an empowered posture of saying, there's something here for me to learn or understand or yeah.
So I feel like coming, coming back to that can
Dave: be, it. It, it seems like the, it's funny, you, when we were talking about this before you, you were talking about the word skeptical. Mm-hmm. You know, and, and it's, it's interesting curiosity versus skepticism, right. What do, what do you think [00:29:00] about, um, like being appropriately skeptical versus sort of I don't know, naive.
Noah: I like that. I like that the, I would actually put open-mindedness and, and skepticism on the spectrum and, and having them both under the umbrella of curiosity. Mm-hmm. I, I think, or maybe, I don't know. I'm, I'm sort of, because I think that like curiosity involves. Both an open-mindedness and a and a skepticism, right?
There's, there is like, okay, what, what here makes sense? What doesn't make sense? You know, just like, it's just a, a posture of trying to understand and unpack and, and flesh out all the layers of the thing. And so you know, if someone has like radically different beliefs about, any topic really. I'm like trying to avoid bringing up [00:30:00] controversial topics.
But right then we can get secure. Like, well why, like, like why is it that someone could come to this topic and see it so differently than me? And, and Right. And I can not necessarily being skeptical. Right. But I'm also. Not being, yeah, I'm just trying to understand. And I think actually skepticism and cynicism are very different.
Dave: Hmm. Yeah.
Noah: Right. And, and cynicism has this sort of shut down quality to it of like, I, you know, whereas skepticism there, there's actually is a curiosity in it. It's like, I don't, this doesn't make sense to me, or I don't believe this, or this doesn't work within my framework. But I, I, but I'm open to understanding.
It how it could under, I'm not gonna just throw away my whole framework and idea of how the world works or what, what's supposed to happen, but I am, but I, I do still wanna understand [00:31:00] this more.
Dave: Yeah. I mean, we, we put our kids out there into pretty vulnerable spaces, right? They, we put them in the care of teachers, we put them in the care of coaches religious, you know, leaders, and, and we're trusting.
Those, those structures, those contexts, those containers, uh, on the one hand. But I think what we're unpacking here is like, you know, uh, how do you take in information digest and information in an, in an appropriately skeptical way and in an appropriately curious way, like being open-minded without being naive, without being, without consuming undigested, you know, harmful toxins.
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
Dave: Right?
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
Dave: Like what is the filter? What is the process for filtering?
Noah: Mm-hmm.
Dave: Information or [00:32:00] influence.
Noah: Yeah. It's so rad. I just wanna say that. Well, that we get to, that we get to do this, that we get to be in, um. In this process with, with our kids and, and the ways that it, like the, the ways that it, it invites us to, to define for ourselves.
Like what do we believe? What are our values? How do we approach these kinds of issues? And and so that we can help our kids. Think through and, and, and work through these things, you know?
Dave: Yeah. You used the metaphor when we were talking about like, like a healthy immune system.
Noah: Yeah,
Dave: exactly. Like we wanna, we wanna provide them with an immune system that can that can handle, you know, the, the, the environmental toxins, uh, without.[00:33:00]
Being harmed by them.
Noah: Totally. Well, and and actually one of the things that I came across, this idea of anti gullible gullibility.
Dave: Say more about that. What does
Noah: that
Dave: mean? Yeah,
Noah: it, it's the idea, it's the trap of thinking that you are so anti gullible that you can see through all the manipulation that's out there that you become that, that you can't be.
Manipulated or can't.
Dave: Oh my gosh. Yeah. You're describing a teenager, by the way.
Noah: Yeah.
Dave: I mean, I, I've had this conversation with my son about like, sort of trying to explain, you know, how how media works and, and how it's incentivized to manipulate, you know?
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
Dave: Um, that. And, and, and he's, it's okay, dad.
You know, I'm not susceptible to that kind of manipulation. Like, you know, and, and you can see how that thought [00:34:00] process, you know, arises because you sort of, you know, you, you, you. You don't even know the monastery you're up against, you know?
Noah: Well, and there's also, and this is really important for all of us humans to know.
There's a part of us that wants to be seduced. There's a part of us that wants to be that wants to be like. Sucked into a story or led by a charismatic leader or like that's I think part of the human experience is like yeah, like, like, I mean, I think a simple example of it is like, at the end of the day, I'm tired, I'm exhausted.
The kids are in bed. I just want to veg out and like watch a show on Netflix, right? Like. I wanna, I wanna drift off into that other story, right? And so how do we come to the terms about that reality, about ourselves and help, like you're saying, equip our kids [00:35:00] with. With that knowledge, with, with, with that awareness that like, as, as anti gullible as we all may think we are, and as, as anti gullible, as certainly our, our tweens and teenagers think they are.
Like that can be the biggest, the biggest problem. And it's always hard to see the water that we're swimming in, so
Dave: can't. You can't read the jar from, you can't read the label from inside the jar that, there you go. Yeah. Yeah. So having, you know, needing to have needing to have some trust in, you know, the resilience of our, our kiddos.
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
Dave: Yeah. So just to sort of summarize the, yeah. The territory that we've covered, you know, we're, we're talking about helping our kids, um. Have enough adversity and challenge to become empowered you know, without being [00:36:00] seduced or manipulated. I think that's
Speaker 3: mm-hmm. Know.
Dave: Having enough exposure to the world of ideas and thought that they can become curious about other perspectives and and really like wrestle with tough ideas.
You know, without going to either extreme of, um, cutting out dissociating from other or. Fusing with other.
Noah: Yes.
Dave: And maybe that's, maybe that, that's the conversation about codependency versus interdependency that we, we might want to tackle at another point.
Noah: Yes. I'm very excited for that conversation.
Dave: I know you are.
Noah: And. And I think like another way of saying what I heard you just say is having our kids both have the, the self-esteem to say, I can go out [00:37:00] and confront the world and the humility to say like, sometimes I might need some help. Right. And, and, and you know, I think about I do this all the time, I'm like.
Wait a second, help me, you know, come to a friend or to a group of friends or, you know, like, help me really, like, understand this, I'm seeing this this way, and am I, am I missing something here? Am I, am I spot on? Like, not wanting to be overconfident or like, you know, like, but also not wanting to just jump off.
And give away what I think I'm like, you know, looking for external reference points to sort of make sure that like I, I'm, I'm on the track that I think I'm on that I'm not getting sort of persuaded into some weird thing or, you know. Yeah.
Dave: Still, still, uh, working on it. I'm still a work in [00:38:00] proce in progress here.
Noah: I think we all are.
Dave: Yeah. But, um, yeah, I had sort of a, I felt proud of, of Rafi last night. We were really, we had a family meeting and we were talking about this potential of him being alone for. A couple hours each morning and you know, he was really kind of stiff, upper liping, like you know, being a martyr.
He was like, I can do it, I can do it, I can do it. But he sort of paused and said, you know, he took a moment. He is like, you know, um, I think I'd feel better if you were here, dad. And I just like, it was such a celebration, you know, to. For him that that was, that was the counter instinctual, that was the difficult move for him, you know, was to speak what was true for him [00:39:00] despite, you know, his urge to be perceived differently.
Noah: Mm-hmm.
Dave: And that's, that's empowerment in my mind.
Noah: Yeah. That's beautiful.
Dave: Yeah.
Noah: Okay. That's a, on that story, an inspiring story to end on. So on that, yeah, I think, uh, my hope is that dads, and if there's, and maybe mom's out there listening to this kind of are walking away, maybe even with more questions than answers.
Right. Because I think the whole, the whole idea here is that we're, we're engaged in a process and, and we're we're thinking about and feeling into and, and, what, what, what's at play, what the dynamics are between, between our kiddos, sense of, of power, of empowerment, of, of I can cope with the world and lean into the world and I'm allowed to reach for what I want.
And their understanding of like, oh wow, there's a big world out there and I need [00:40:00] help sometimes. And sometimes there are other people out there who might actually know. Better than I do. What's good for me and, and those people are, are hopefully my parents. And so yeah, I dunno if you, if you have any last thoughts or
Dave: just, uh, the standard council father's reminder. To be compassionate with yourselves on the, on this journey. We're all walking it together and, um, yeah, it's much more art than science and it, one thing we've learned for sure through doing this work is that there is something about self-compassion that makes us stronger.
Noah: Absolutely. And we can still hold ourselves. Be held accountable even within the container of self-compassion that it doesn't, it's not a either or kind [00:41:00] of thing. And if anything, our ability to step into accountability grows with with compassion.
Dave: Here's hoping.
Noah: Have a beautiful day out there. Uh, as always, if you liked this, please feel free to share it with somebody.
It could be a great, you know, thing to have a conversation about with your partner, with a friend on your next, on a hike or a, uh, hangout. If you like this, please feel free to rate us on the, on the whatever podcast app you listen to. That also helps more people find us and, check out programs dot council of fathers.com if you wanna learn more about fathering from the heart.
Um, really, like I said, excited about it. It's a really amazing program. And have a beautiful day and keep on keeping on.
Dave: Thanks y'all.